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 Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US

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Slivendiferious
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:01 pm

Yume Hanabi wrote:
Are we still discussing the practicality of Tales heroes outfits nearly twenty years into the series?

Lloyd's outfit being completely red didn't strike me as impractical until this. moment. right. now.

How on earth did he manage to pull off all those ambushes without getting caught?

He stood out like a sore thumb!
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:20 pm

Slivendiferious wrote:
Yume Hanabi wrote:
Are we still discussing the practicality of Tales heroes outfits nearly twenty years into the series?

Lloyd's outfit being completely red didn't strike me as impractical until this. moment. right. now.

How on earth did he manage to pull off all those ambushes without getting caught?

He stood out like a sore thumb!

Well, technically, he did stand out. On your first visit to the Renegades base, the Renegades say they're looking for "that kid in red." That prompts Lloyd to grouse, "Red, red, red! Does my outfit really stand out that much?"

Yes, Lloyd. Yes it does. But it's okay, because I dress you up as a pirate the first chance I get . . . which admittedly doesn't make you stand out any less, but hey.

Anyway, I like to discuss the practicality of Tales Series characters' outfits mostly in regards to the ladies, since it's almost always the ladies that are dressed in skimpy clothes, quite obviously for fanservice reasons. I mean, for instance, Asbel, Malik, and Alisha are all knights, but Alisha is the only one wearing spankies into battle instead of actual pants. Yeah, Asbel and Malik are from a different game in the series, but somehow I feel like the male knights in Zestiria are probably not going to be wearing hot pants. =P (That said, if they are, I will be very impressed and will withdraw my criticism of Alisha's outfit.)

It's not so much that I think all outfits have to be 100% practical, but I do admit that I get annoyed when characters like Judith and Milla are dressed in super skimpy outfits (with the excuse being, "they like to dress like that!" because who decided they liked being dressed like that, hm?) and they're always, always ladies. The skimpiest the male party members get with their standard outfits are belly shirts (Luke, Kyle) and a lack of sleeves (Zelos, which is especially funny when you consider the fact that if anyone would be fine going around half naked, it's probably him).
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:43 pm

If you want a game with women wearing very skimpy and whore-ish outfits, try Final Fantasy X-2 even though its a terrible game but that's beside the point. >.>
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:53 pm

Final Fantasy X-2 > Tales of Symphonia

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Fri Aug 01, 2014 11:00 pm

Well, yes, lots of games have skimpily dressed female characters, and the degree of skimpy outfits varies from game to game. But, "This girl is dressed in an even skimpier outfit!" or "This game has skimpily dressed girls too!" doesn't mean that you can dismiss constructive criticisms of Milla or Alisha's designs (just to use them as examples).

In other words . . . Natalia's birth mother was fridged in Abyss (to create angst for Largo). You could then say, "Yeah, well, I can name three female characters that were fridged off the top of my head in Symphonia!" This is very true. Three female characters at least were fridged in Symphonia. But that doesn't take Natalia's mother out of the fridge, it just increases the number.

This is like that. The ladies in X-2 may have very revealing outfits, but that doesn't make the lady outfits in the Tales Series any less deserving of criticism.
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:03 am

Well yeah, I know that. Us real men don't complain or criticize though, we just enjoy the view. ^_^ Why do girls complain and criticize?

@Dreamsword, Are you friggin serious man? Noooooo wayyyyy!
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:28 am

DreamSword wrote:
Final Fantasy X-2 > Tales of Symphonia
At least someone who agrees with me.

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:22 am

swordandshield wrote:
Well yeah, I know that. Us real men don't complain or criticize though, we just enjoy the view. ^_^ Why do girls complain and criticize?

Probably because we want female characters to be treated as more than eye candy for straight male viewers. Probably because we want to be treated with the same respect guys are. Probably also because media will never improve if it isn't given constructive criticism.
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:28 am

Why not make the males equal eye-candy instead?

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:41 am

Scrawlers wrote:
swordandshield wrote:
Well yeah, I know that. Us real men don't complain or criticize though, we just enjoy the view. ^_^ Why do girls complain and criticize?

Probably because we want female characters to be treated as more than eye candy for straight male viewers. Probably because we want to be treated with the same respect guys are. Probably also because media will never improve if it isn't given constructive criticism.
But you're arguing against human nature. The ladies go by looks too. I know its what inside that counts the most but admiring a woman's body can be a sign of respect too just in a different sense. I'm not talking about viewing them as nothing but sex objects. Besides you should know by now that the Japanese are a bunch of perverted freaks. They have billboards of naked women. Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:46 am

swordandshield wrote:
But you're arguing against human nature. The ladies go by looks too. I know its what inside that counts the most but admiring a woman's body can be a sign of respect too just in a different sense. I'm not talking about viewing them as nothing but sex objects. Besides you should know by now that the Japanese are a bunch of perverted freaks. They have billboards of naked women. Surprised
You are never going to get laid.

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:50 am

Already have a few years ago with my ex...but what makes you say that? XD

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:50 am

DreamSword wrote:
Why not make the males equal eye-candy instead?

I would be perfectly OK with this. As I mentioned before, if all of the male knights in Alisha's army also do battle in spankies, I will retract my criticism of her lack of pants. I just sincerely doubt that's going to be the case.

swordandshield wrote:
But you're arguing against human nature. The ladies go by looks too. I know its what inside that counts the most but admiring a woman's body can be a sign of respect too just in a different sense. I'm not talking about viewing them as nothing but sex objects. Besides you should know by now that the Japanese are a bunch of perverted freaks. They have billboards of naked women.

Human nature has nothing to do with character design. To begin with, not all people are sexual. To continue, even people who are interested in that sort of thing aren't always interested in women. On top of which, even people who are interested in women often want female characters to be designed with the same respect and dignity given to male characters. I have a lot of heterosexual male friends that agree with me on this.

Building on that, "the ladies go by looks too" isn't really an argument for anything when most (not all, but a good deal of) male characters are designed with the male audience in mind. You could argue that characters like Nathan Drake are buff, but that plays far more into a male power fantasy than it does the heterosexual female gaze. (Not that ladies don't like Nathan Drake, per se, but just that whether ladies liked him or not wasn't considered when designing him.) I mean, roping it back to the Tales Series, it's not at all surprising that we got an old man character like Rowen, but how good are the chances that we'll get an old, wrinkly lady party member, hm? We likely won't, because she wouldn't be very good fanservice. Not like Sheena or Judith, and not like Patty or Sophie on the moe side. Female characters are considered for fanservice beyond most else. I mean, hell, Milla Maxwell would not be able to be alive if she was real, with those body proportions. But that doesn't matter, because she's eye candy regardless.

Moving on, no one is saying that you can't admire a woman's body. But it is saying something when female characters are designed in such a way that they're emphasized for sexuality. Cheria, for instance, is a mature young woman in the adult arc of Graces who founded and runs a charity organization. And yet, she's going to go out in a skirt so short she can barely bend over without exposing everything? She'll put her hair up in childish pigtails with ribbons instead of a ponytail? Given Cheria's personality, I cannot believe she would willingly wear that without a character designer telling her that she has to. Likewise, I cannot believe that Sheena Fujibayashi, a character who is openly modest and embarrassed about her body, would willingly walk around with her top open so that you can see her bra (which she does). It's not realistic. Thinking a woman is pretty is one thing, but media creators specifically designing female characters to appeal to the male gaze without regard to how those characters would behave, dress, or exist as characters is another, and it is worth talking about. (Especially when, again, male characters usually aren't treated the same way. Gods above bless Dick Grayson as Nightwing for defying that.)

Lastly, Japanese people as a whole are not perverted freaks, and that's actually a pretty awful thing to say. Like, honestly, I have no idea why anyone would even think that, much less say it. Wow.
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:55 am

swordandshield wrote:
Already have a few years ago with my ex...but what makes you say that? XD
because of all the sexist bullshit you spout.

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:27 am

Scrawlers wrote:
DreamSword wrote:
Why not make the males equal eye-candy instead?

I would be perfectly OK with this. As I mentioned before, if all of the male knights in Alisha's army also do battle in spankies, I will retract my criticism of her lack of pants. I just sincerely doubt that's going to be the case.

swordandshield wrote:
But you're arguing against human nature. The ladies go by looks too. I know its what inside that counts the most but admiring a woman's body can be a sign of respect too just in a different sense. I'm not talking about viewing them as nothing but sex objects. Besides you should know by now that the Japanese are a bunch of perverted freaks. They have billboards of naked women.

Human nature has nothing to do with character design. To begin with, not all people are sexual. To continue, even people who are interested in that sort of thing aren't always interested in women. On top of which, even people who are interested in women often want female characters to be designed with the same respect and dignity given to male characters. I have a lot of heterosexual male friends that agree with me on this.

Building on that, "the ladies go by looks too" isn't really an argument for anything when most (not all, but a good deal of) male characters are designed with the male audience in mind. You could argue that characters like Nathan Drake are buff, but that plays far more into a male power fantasy than it does the heterosexual female gaze. (Not that ladies don't like Nathan Drake, per se, but just that whether ladies liked him or not wasn't considered when designing him.) I mean, roping it back to the Tales Series, it's not at all surprising that we got an old man character like Rowen, but how good are the chances that we'll get an old, wrinkly lady party member, hm? We likely won't, because she wouldn't be very good fanservice. Not like Sheena or Judith, and not like Patty or Sophie on the moe side. Female characters are considered for fanservice beyond most else. I mean, hell, Milla Maxwell would not be able to be alive if she was real, with those body proportions. But that doesn't matter, because she's eye candy regardless.

Moving on, no one is saying that you can't admire a woman's body. But it is saying something when female characters are designed in such a way that they're emphasized for sexuality. Cheria, for instance, is a mature young woman in the adult arc of Graces who founded and runs a charity organization. And yet, she's going to go out in a skirt so short she can barely bend over without exposing everything? She'll put her hair up in childish pigtails with ribbons instead of a ponytail? Given Cheria's personality, I cannot believe she would willingly wear that without a character designer telling her that she has to. Likewise, I cannot believe that Sheena Fujibayashi, a character who is openly modest and embarrassed about her body, would willingly walk around with her top open so that you can see her bra (which she does). It's not realistic. Thinking a woman is pretty is one thing, but media creators specifically designing female characters to appeal to the male gaze without regard to how those characters would behave, dress, or exist as characters is another, and it is worth talking about. (Especially when, again, male characters usually aren't treated the same way. Gods above bless Dick Grayson as Nightwing for defying that.)

Lastly, Japanese people as a whole are not perverted freaks, and that's actually a pretty awful thing to say. Like, honestly, I have no idea why anyone would even think that, much less say it. Wow.
Well, you do have a point and I agree with much of what you said. Fanservice is in anime as well more so than it is in video games. Just look anime porn for example, hentai I think its called? There's bits and pieces of hentai everywhere in anime. And hentai doesn't always have to pertain to sex but just the exposing of private parts, typically females like showing short skirts and panties. In video games, especially RPG's I agree that having female characters wear very skimpy and whore-ish clothes is weird and not very realistic given the nature of their personalities. The outward appearance doesn't reflect their inward personality. However, fanservice is a way for them to make more money because they know there's more male audience than female. I mean I've run into some girl gamers but they are indeed a rare breed. Razz

And I was partially joking about all Japanese being perverted, lol. ^_^

@Dei, How am I being sexist? You are jumping to conclusions. I said females shouldn't be viewed as sex objects but they can be admired for their bodies but loved for who they are deep inside. Why do women spend so much money on beauty products like make-up and whatnot if they don't want to be admired for their beauty?

Don't hate, appreciate, lol. ^_^
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:43 am

swordandshield wrote:
How am I being sexist? I said females shouldn't be viewed as sex objects but they can be admired for their bodies but loved for who they are deep inside.

You don't seem to understand the problem with "male-oriented fanservice". The problem is not whether it exists or not, the problem is that it's everywhere even when it's unwarranted while, on the other hand, guys get pissed at anime like Free! for catering to females.

Look at this picture or watch those salad dressing commercials and imagine that every single male characters are designed this way or that every single products are marketed this way. If it makes you even slightly uncomfortable keep in mind that this is how women feel all the time.

swordandshield wrote:
However, fanservice is a way for them to make more money because they know there's more male audience than female. I mean I've run into some girl gamers but they are indeed a rare breed. :P

There is equally, if not more, female gamers. I can guarantee you that a good quality game with a strong, non-sexualized female lead character or female-oriented fanservice would sell extremely well if it were to receive the same amount of advertisement as a "guy game". I played my fair share of video games and it might sounds strange, but I was genuinely happy when I was playing Deadpool and, while addressing the player, he acknowledged that they could be female. It's not much but for a very rare moment the game I was playing didn't blindly assumed that I was a guy and this means a lot when you keep having to choose between the big testosterone-pumped dude or the unnecessary sexy girl in a bikini armour, when you are given the option to play as a female character.

Female gamers are not a "rare breed", we just tend to avoid sexist douchebags who want us to "go make them a sandwich" the moment they learn that our reproductive organs are inside our bodies.

swordandshield wrote:
Why do women spend so much money on beauty products like make-up and whatnot if they don't want to be admired for their beauty?

Maybe because we are raised to be nothing but eye-candy for the self-entitled male half of the population and constantly judged for the way we dress or look? Do you honestly believe that women want to spend hundreds of dollars on beauty products because it will alledgedly correct flaws fabricated by said product's company? The entire beauty industry revolves around making us feel bad about the way we look so they can sell us products we don't need.

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:33 am

I guess Regal Bryant really does show the most skin out of the male Tales of characters.


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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:43 am

How was the name of that new wind guy who seems not to be playable? That one with the gun? If we had a party member looking like that, then it would be "fair". More or less. I am pretty much annoyed by both kinds of fanservice.

Found him:
Zabeeda
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:08 pm

Zwei.0 wrote:
How was the name of that new wind guy who seems not to be playable? That one with the gun? If we had a party member looking like that, then it would be "fair". More or less. I am pretty much annoyed by both kinds of fanservice.

Found him:
Zabeeda

They may say his name is Zabeeda, but we all know he's really Ivar after Ivar went 'round the twist due to being rejected by Milla. :P

Silliness aside, it's true that he's dressed impractically, but he's also designed in such a way that I feel like he still sort of plays up the male power fantasy? In that, yeah, he's missing a shirt, but he's also super buff and strong and cool. He's not like Presa in Xillia, who was half-naked, had faux cat ears and a tail, had a voluptuous walk and had an entire scene devoted to her groping Milla. Presa was very clearly designed to be sexualized, whereas Zabeeda--while shirtless and attractive!--is clearly meant to appear just as powerful and in control as any other antagonist. He's not hyper sexualized, in other words. He's clearly meant to be more than just eye candy.

But yeah, more male party members like that would definitely be a step in the right direction, at least for equality's sake. I mean, I love Xillia's cast (I may be in the minority for that, but) but you can really see the fanservice distribution there. Jude could sort of count as the moe shota, I guess, but definitely not to the level that, say, Elise does for the female side. Alvin is the most attractive of the guys, but he's wearing so many layers it's almost hilarious, and Rowen is . . . well, Rowen. Meanwhile, you have Milla and her lack of clothing + ridiculously disproportionate figure, genki girl Leia with her short-shorts, and gothic loli moe extraordinare Elise. Of course these girls are more than just that, I love the Xillia girls to death! But I feel as though it's hard to deny that the girls are designed with a lot more fanservice than the guys in this game. And honestly, when I first saw Xillia's cast, I was really turned off by that fact. (But I reserved final judgment until I played the game and I'm glad I did, because again, I loved it. I'm just saying, design wise . . .)

All of this said, I, like you, would actually rather they cut it out with the fanservice/anime tropes altogether. I just think that, since it's unlikely they'll do that, it'd be nice if they at least balanced it out and made it equal. Even something small, like giving us an old lady party member that actually looks like an old lady, while at the same time having a dude that's not only in his twenties and pretty looking but, I don't know, shirtless or something, would be a nice step to take. Something fresh and fun and, well, balanced. I think that'd be a nice step to take.

Saeko wrote:
The problem is not whether it exists or not, the problem is that it's everywhere even when it's unwarranted while, on the other hand, guys get pissed at anime like Free! for catering to females.

Yes, exactly. On that note, though, have you seen this blog? It's literally a collection of posts from dudes around the internet throwing tantrums and hissy fits over Free!. It's pretty great.

Saeko wrote:
swordandshield wrote:
However, fanservice is a way for them to make more money because they know there's more male audience than female. I mean I've run into some girl gamers but they are indeed a rare breed. :P

There is equally, if not more, female gamers.

Yeeeeep. Well, to be specific, while the overall gender breakdown (as of this year) puts female gamers at 48% of the gaming population and male gamers at 52%, the Entertainment Software Association still maintains (still, because this has been true for the past couple of years) that "women aged 18 years of age or older represent a greater of the gaming population (36%) than males aged 18 years of age or younger (17%)." Here is the source for your perusal. So not only are there more adult ladies playing games than young boys (despite the fact that cultural stereotypes would have you believe the opposite, both in that games are supposed to be "for boys" but also "immature and childish"), but even if you take the overall percentages into account, it's basically equal. There certainly isn't a wide enough gap to make sexism in the game industry--through the games created, through the media reported, through the culture and attitude between players--acceptable or justifiable in any way, shape, or form.

Besides, let's pretend for a moment that women weren't interested in games, as ridiculous as that notion is (ridiculous to me especially, since I've been playing video games since I was four years old). Let's just pretend that hypothesis had any credibility. Do you really think the way to get women to play games is to objectify them within the medium, treat them as if their opinions and feelings don't matter when they do raise valid criticisms about it, and create every single game with a male audience in mind while completely ignoring the female audience? Women make up 50% of the human population. If game companies only pander to males, they're losing 50% of potential sales (pretending for a moment that every human being on the planet wants to play video games, but if you're running a business, that's the sort of dream you want to shoot for, no matter how ambitious). If you pander to only straight males, you're losing even more sales. The financially wise move to make would be to not cater your games to only a small (albeit vocal) demographic, but instead extend your reach to as many as you can. You do this by not sexualizing entire groups of people, ignoring other groups, and basically shutting out anyone who isn't in your chosen demographic. So even if your claim was accurate, Swordandshield, and women didn't play games very often at all, that still doesn't make it right or even smart for gaming companies to completely ignore them.

And no, before you wonder, that doesn't mean that we need more games with frills and bows and ponies to appeal to girls, either. As a lady, I've never been interested in those "girl games." The ladies I know who play games (and I know a lot of ladies who play games) aren't interested in those, either. You can make great games that appeal to everyone and aren't sexualized in any way. Hell, did you know that's why Pac-Man was created? It's true. Pac-Man was created to appeal to both men and women, which is why it's based around food, because everyone eats food. And it was a raging success! And yet, someone at Namco decided years later that girls probably still didn't like Pac-Man (not true), and so they made Ms. Pac-Man, which is . . . the same thing, but with a bow and lipstick. Utter nonsense. (I mean, Ms. Pac-Man is fun, but wholly unnecessary.) There are also games like Pokémon, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Spyro the Dragon (the original trilogy, at least; I never played past Year of the Dragon), and other such games that appeal to everyone without having any sexist nonsense in them. And I mean, do you know how many ladies are in this very fanbase that you're participating in? A lot, despite the fanservice. Ladies play games. If you haven't encountered lady gamers, then maybe something in your attitude makes them reluctant to talk to you about video games. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but I am saying I had to stop attending the very video game club I helped found at my university because I kept getting creeped on/harassed by a few dudes (and one in particular), so it's something to think about.

And Saeko said everything else I was going to say, so I'll leave it at that. This is a novel enough already. I'm sorry, guys, I just have a lot of feelings . . .
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:35 pm

Saeko wrote:
swordandshield wrote:
How am I being sexist? I said females shouldn't be viewed as sex objects but they can be admired for their bodies but loved for who they are deep inside.

You don't seem to understand the problem with "male-oriented fanservice". The problem is not whether it exists or not, the problem is that it's everywhere even when it's unwarranted while, on the other hand, guys get pissed at anime like Free! for catering to females.

Look at this picture or watch those salad dressing commercials and imagine that every single male characters are designed this way or that every single products are marketed this way. If it makes you even slightly uncomfortable keep in mind that this is how women feel all the time.

swordandshield wrote:
However, fanservice is a way for them to make more money because they know there's more male audience than female. I mean I've run into some girl gamers but they are indeed a rare breed. Razz

There is equally, if not more, female gamers. I can guarantee you that a good quality game with a strong, non-sexualized female lead character or female-oriented fanservice would sell extremely well if it were to receive the same amount of advertisement as a "guy game". I played my fair share of video games and it might sounds strange, but I was genuinely happy when I was playing Deadpool and, while addressing the player, he acknowledged that they could be female. It's not much but for a very rare moment the game I was playing didn't blindly assumed that I was a guy and this means a lot when you keep having to choose between the big testosterone-pumped dude or the unnecessary sexy girl in a bikini armour, when you are given the option to play as a female character.

Female gamers are not a "rare breed", we just tend to avoid sexist douchebags who want us to "go make them a sandwich" the moment they learn that our reproductive organs are inside our bodies.

swordandshield wrote:
Why do women spend so much money on beauty products like make-up and whatnot if they don't want to be admired for their beauty?

Maybe because we are raised to be nothing but eye-candy for the self-entitled male half of the population and constantly judged for the way we dress or look? Do you honestly believe that women want to spend hundreds of dollars on beauty products because it will alledgedly correct flaws fabricated by said product's company? The entire beauty industry revolves around making us feel bad about the way we look so they can sell us products we don't need.
So you basically want a balance? It'll never happen though, fanservice will always cater to males more than females, unfortunately. I feel bad for girls and women. We live in a society that is male dominant and its always been that way since the dawn of time. Women in the workforce get paid less than men do in a lot of jobs. It's an ongoing battle with women's rights.

Not only are there sexist douchebags that want you make them a sandwich but also want you to shut up and make them pot pies. XD

Yeah, you're right about the beauty industry. Some women do care about their beauty though, like models and porn stars. So some women do want to spend a truck load on beauty and fashion products but that's in the minority of the population I guess.

@Scrawlers, Do you think I'm sexist? Cause I'm not. I love women, not just for their looks. There's a lot of sweet and caring women out there and I wouldn't care if they were ugly.
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DreamSword
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:20 pm

How about we all just drop the gender discussion that has nothing to do with Xillia 2 and move on with our lives?

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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:38 pm

Before I come off as a completely paranoid jackass, I want to say that I agree with everything you’ve said Scrawlers.

However!

I do not agree with the Entertainment Software Association.

But Sliv, the ESA showed you cold, hard facts. Those are not something you can disagree on!
Actually, they kind of are.

This is statistics we’re talking about, and I realize I’ve mentioned it before, but I feel like it bears repeating.

ESA wrote:
The 2014 Essential Facts About the Computer and Video Game Industry was released by the Entertainment Software Assocation (ESA) in April 2014. The annual research was conducted by Ipsos MediaCT for ESA. The study is the most in-depth and targeted survey of its kind, gathering data from more than 2200 nationally representative households. Heads of households, and the most frequent gamers within each household, were surveyed about their game play habits and attitudes.
I could find no information on what kind of surveying they did.

Did they mail a survey to perhaps 3000 people/ „households” and got 2200 replies? Did they visit their houses and ask them questions? Did they invite people to an office? Did they ask people to fill in a survey when buying games? Was it a survey with open or closed questions?

At least they keep stressing they are only talking about the U.S. and not about the whole world. Things might be different in China, in Japan, in Mexico, in Russia, in Sweden, in the Netherlands. This survey took place in the United States, and used information from 2200 Nationally Representative Households.

What makes a household „nationally representative”?

According to Wikipedia, as of August 2, 2014, the United States has a total resident population of 318,491,000 people. What makes those 2200 households more nationally representative than the others?

Can information taken from 2200 households even be considered representative for 318,491,000 people?

Without knowing the method they’ve used, I can’t form a proper opinion on how they gathered their data, and by extension, on their conclusions.
People always tend to answer surveys or interview questions with answers they believe to be commonly and culturally accepted. I’m not saying they would be lies, because most often they would be truths. Just not complete truths.

As a simple example:
If you drink three cups of coffee a day, and you feel a little bad about that because you know you should only be drinking two cups per day, and someone would be interviewing you for an official survey, assuring you you’ll stay anonymous, would you answer that you drink three cups of coffee a day, or two? What about your friends and family?

Results from surveys are skewed more often than not.

It’s not that I don’t trust Ipsos MediaCT is a professional company that knows what it’s doing, it’s that I don’t trust what conclusions they draw from their research.


ESA states that 51% of U.S. households own a dedicated game console, and those that do own an average of 2. What they can probably say for certain from their data is in fact, that 51% of the 2200 surveyed households claims they own a dedicated game console and that the average of game consoles per surveyed household is two.

I own six gaming consoles. A GBA, a GBASP, a GC, a PS3, a 3DS and a WiiU (what constitutes a gaming console?). Let’s assume for a moment that both of my neighbors own a WiiU and one of them owns a 3DS.

If we were to be surveyed, the average number of gaming consoles in the surveyed households would be 3 dedicated game consoles and 100% of the households would own a WiiU. Are my neighbors and I nationally representative households? Probably not.

Heck, we’re all students, and students in my country are not really gamers. At least, they claim not to be. As a student, you study, read books, work, do internships, household chores, go to the movies, hang with friends, drink a lot, etc.
They either don’t have time to play games, or in most cases, they claim not to be interested in them anymore. I believe them. Most of them.

But if you were to ask them if they play games on their smartphones, then yes, they do do that. A lot, in fact. When waiting for their trains to arrive at the station, during the train ride itself, when waiting for their exams to start, when taking a small break from studying, right before going to bed.

Practically every student I know plays „games” on their smartphone or tablet. Simple games, like WordFeud, candy crush, plants vs zombies, and many others, but games nonetheless. When you play games on your smartphone, you are a Game Player. A Game Player counted by the ESA in their research.

But ESA never explains which statistics they have been included in and from which they have been left out.

The differences between 48% of all the Console gamers being female, 48% of all the PC gamers being female, 48% of all the smartphone gamers being female and 48% of all gamers being female are huge.

As you can see, statistics is a tricky business. The research is easy to do, but doing the right research is hard. Coming to the right conclusions is even harder.

I don’t trust their figures, but I want them to be true. Really, I do. I also believe wholeheartedly that games should be catered to women just as much as they should be to men, and that women can be just as interested in games as men can be.

It’s just that I don’t think these figures ESA presents are truly representative.

All I want to say is that I have developed a certain caution regarding statistics. Especially when the research methods have not been disclosed. With statistics, it’s all too easy to prove that there is a very straightforward link between the decline of the Penguin population on the South Pole, and the global depression, to name an example. I might be a little paranoid regarding this topic, but they make it all too easy to doubt them.

To stay at least slightly on topic, I will add that I was quite disappointed in the wardrobe section of Pokemon XY. Girls have so many more clothing options and haircuts than boys in that game that it’s bordering on ridiculous ( even if it is realistic… >__> ).

I’m sorry you had to stop attending your video game club.
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:44 pm

DreamSword wrote:
How about we all just drop the gender discussion that has nothing to do with Xillia 2 and move on with our lives?
Yeah, I'm sorry it was even brought up.
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:31 pm

Holy shit, I'm so gonna cite you in my future paper Sliv. And I don't think of your view as a paranoid way of seeing things, it's just how things work.

Statistics are almost always skewed towards the researcher's intention than the actual state of things. They are not lying per se, but they definitely are not the whole truth. A researcher only discloses data that supports their research topic so they can arrive at their intended conclusion.

A supervisor of mine explicitly told me to not show all data from a completed research and emphasis more on results that help in solving my problem statements; it's much easier to get approval on paper that has low amount of tables which in turn invites fewer discrepancies than a paper that have a huge amount of data but clashes with the point you're trying to make.

So yeah, with anything statistics, regardless of how cold, hard fact it may be, it's better to take everything with a grain of salt.


And err, on topic - yay xillia 2 is coming soon. best. game. ever.
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PostSubject: Re: Its getting real close to Xillia 2's release date in the US   Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:03 pm

swordandshield wrote:
There's a lot of sweet and caring women out there and I wouldn't care if they were ugly.

How kind of you.

Slivendiferious wrote:
All I want to say is that I have developed a certain caution regarding statistics. Especially when the research methods have not been disclosed. With statistics, it’s all too easy to prove that there is a very straightforward link between the decline of the Penguin population on the South Pole, and the global depression, to name an example. I might be a little paranoid regarding this topic, but they make it all too easy to doubt them.

I'm just quoting that portion so as to avoid quoting a whole block. =P

Basically, in short: I completely agree with your wariness about the statistics/surveys done. You are absolutely right in that it is completely easy to skew statistics, that surveys can be made in such a way to get the answers they want rather than the answers that are actually true, and that people will occasionally fib and/or outright lie in order to appear more socially acceptable. (That said, if someone is told they will remain anonymous I feel they're more likely to be honest, since where's the shame if no one knows that answer is yours?) But with that in mind, those are the most credible (which may not be saying much, but hey) sources that I could find to give an idea of the gender breakdown in gaming in the U.S. It was the easiest way to get some idea from some source other than just personal experience (though again, I know quite a lot of female gamers as well as male gamers, to the point where it is just about equal in my personal experience, so there is that). Like I said, I completely understand your skepticism and I agree with your reasons for it! But I also, just from personal experience, would be more inclined to believe results like this than to believe in the mainstream stereotype of, "girls rarely ever play games." (NOT saying you have that attitude, because I know you don't. Just saying that's the attitude that many do have. =/)

So yeah, Sliv, I pretty much agree with you, but that was the best I could find on short notice.
Sliv wrote:
To stay at least slightly on topic, I will add that I was quite disappointed in the wardrobe section of Pokemon XY. Girls have so many more clothing options and haircuts than boys in that game that it’s bordering on ridiculous ( even if it is realistic… >__> ).

Honestly, they should have just let characters crossdress, tbh. They allow characters to crossdress in Animal Crossing, so I honestly don't understand why Pokémon XY didn't offer the same option. Especially since, despite picking the female player character, I really wanted to have my character wear some of the boy clothes . . .

Um, but on the topic of Xillia 2 . . . er, I'm excited for the relationship system?
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