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 [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization

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Scrawlers

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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:15 am

Lloyzerdk wrote:
I assumed Ivar was telling Jude to watch his mouth given that Rideaux is his boss and that he doesn't like Jude.

I was confused by that initially as well in the English version, but when you look at the Japanese version of that scene, it becomes a lot more clear (and makes a lot more sense), especially when you remember that:

1.) Rideaux was talking to Ivar, not Jude, which would therefore make more sense for Ivar to respond to him
2.) Jude's line to Rideaux wasn't even anything that bad (I mean, "damn" is hardly considered a swear word)
3.) Ivar actually dislikes Rideaux a whole heck of a lot, though admittedly you don't find that out until a bit later.

It makes more sense for Ivar to snap at Rideaux than Jude at that scene, especially since Ivar and Jude were talking at more or less the same time. It's just another thing that was made less clear in English.

Friendzie wrote:
Jude treats the real Milla much differently than he treats fractured Milla even in the English version. [. . .] At the end of the day, nobody walks away thinking that Jude wasn't way happier to see the real Milla.

No one said that he wasn't happier to see Milla Maxwell, and again, the argument is not "does he treat them the same way?" but rather, "Does the obvious emotional conflict he have/intended distance he puts between himself and Alt Milla translate through to the English version as it was supposed to" and the answer is, no.

If you'll notice, my response was barely discussing how Jude acts around Milla Maxwell. The only times I mentioned it were to point out the fact that my early-game reading that he had anxieties about seeing her again were confirmed later on in the game in a character episode, and to point out the fact that, once he moved past that, his relationship with Milla Maxwell built on the relationship they established in X1 into something even stronger. I then went right back and pointed out that this is in contrast to the stilted, distant relationship he had with Alt Milla, which was the actual focus of that essay I typed. This is not about whether Jude treats them the same, but rather the fact that the way he treats/sees Alt Milla is altered in the English version. Again, I quoted not just the Rideaux and Ivar scene, but also the E.S.S. Pelune scene above, with both Japanese and English transcripts. The change is marked and there.

Friendzie wrote:
Him saying that "she's still Milla" one time does NOT imply that he thinks she's Milla Maxwell.

That quote was one time, yes. The other was, "You're Milla just as much as she is," which does in fact imply, well, exactly what it says. You're the same as she is, I'm accepting you as her, even though he very plainly isn't and goes right on to contradict himself later on in that very same scene, in English.

It's not about whether Jude thinks she's Milla Maxwell, but whether or not it sounds as if he's accepting her as such. The way the localizers changed the lines made it sound as if he was a lot more accepting of her as Milla versus being accepting of her as a person, separate from Milla. This change was intentional, more than likely because Jude could come off as a bit more cold to her in the Japanese version ("There is only one 'Milla' to me, and it's important that I make that distinction") than he did in the English version as a result ("The other Milla was special to me; she had a place in my heart"). Jude calling her by a different name in the Japanese version, and saying that he's doing so to differentiate her from the other Milla is a marked distinction from in English, when he says, why would it be hard for me to call you by her name? You're the same!

I apologize, but there is no way for me to look at that change and not see that--to not see the difference between "I call you that because you're different from her" and "it's not hard for me to use her name for you because you're her as much as she is." There were some things the localizers could not change, such as Jude walking away from her and putting physical distance between them in the Nala Lava Tubes and deliberately putting them on separate teams for the Odin chapter, but they did deliberately change dialogue, deliberately change how Jude addresses her, and as a result made him seem less conflicted unless you pay attention to subtle character cues, presumably for the sake of making him appear nicer.

Really, I just do not see the other way of reading "you're Milla as much as she is." Even if you try to twist it to say that he was lying to "spare her feelings," I don't see it (especially since, again, not two lines later he says "you're two different people" depending on which choice you pick, which is pretty contradictory).

Oh, but if by "he's not confused" you were responding to the bit where I said that it would be difficult for him because there would be times he would feel drawn to Alt Milla, and that Ivar's line of "stop messing with my head, faker!" could also apply to Jude--that was more to explain why it makes sense for him to put that distance/separation between them, in how he addresses Alt Milla and how much time he spends with her, because it is and would be difficult for him to be around her. Hell, this is even highlighted in chapter seven by Leia asking Rowen to keep an eye on Jude/keep him in Nia Khera while the rest of them go after Alt Milla to the Hollowmont, and NPC Elise saying, "I know you don't feel very well right now, Jude . . ." Alt Milla hit all of them pretty hard, but special attention was drawn to how difficult it was for Jude especially, which is why, again, it makes more sense for him to address her differently than to say, "you're Milla just as much as she is," because no, he really does not see them as being the same, regardless of what the loc team tried to make him say.
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:20 am

Can we say that Jude's characterization towards fractured Milla is probably the thing that was most altered or different from the Japanese version? Or are there any other big changes?
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Sun Sep 07, 2014 12:45 am

Hmm . . . I can't say for sure, because Jude's behavior toward Alt Milla was the thing I paid the most attention to. I didn't play the Japanese version before I played the English version, so I didn't know how it played out in Japanese, but I was really, really hoping that it was portrayed well in the English version. Unfortunately for me, well . . . and learning how it was improved so much in the Japanese version just made things worse for me, haha. It just made me more frustrated for what could have been. We could have had it all. (Well, we could have had it all in a lot of ways in this game, but that's a discussion for another day and isn't just one pertaining to the localization, either.)

Anyway, the point is, I can't say if this is overall the biggest change between the two versions, only that it's the one that's most important to me of the changes that I know of and that I could have easily let the other ones slide without as much scrutiny. Yume would be a better judge of what the most major changes were than I am.
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:11 am

DreamSword, if all you can say about someone's post is that you didn't read it, please abstain from posting. I've deleted your comment.

On topic: I don't know. It is the most obvious changed I've encountered so far tbh, probably because the altered lines and their originals are complete opposites. The other changes seem more subtle and you often have to look at the whole picture to notice them.
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Tue Sep 09, 2014 12:15 am

If you just play the English versions, Jude is portrayed as a guy who tries to protect others and the feelings of other people even at the expense of being a little disingenuous or annoying. He mothers over Leia and he's overly idealistic about anything concerning Milla. His statement that "she's still Milla" or whatever is an obvious Jude statement meant to protect her feelings. I don't think that in the grand scope of the hundred hours of dialogue that anyone would mistake his reaction for him actually believing that this was the Milla he's been missing for the past year. The whole thing seems like an overblown nitpick to me. They made the right call in not making him say "Milla-san" and just altering the dialogue to make him say something else Jude-like that fits into the way that Jude typically reacts to things. It's made very clear through the rest of the game that Jude's feeling towards Fractured Milla are that he doesn't see her as being the same person at all. The end result of the game is the same even if that one line is slightly different. I mean I spent about 70 hours doing one playthrough of Xillia 2 so I'm surprised that the localization discussion is focusing on basically a couple individual lines. If there are no major differences then I'm happy with how it was done.

Also, there's this which takes place potentially right after the changed dialogue in question, in the start of Muzet's chapter:

Ivar: She's stern in her own way, but it's just not the same.
Jude: Yeah... I know exactly what you mean. (spoken very solemnly)

I mean let's talk about some of the good lines. I was told that the translation of "that's not a zipper" in the debt repayment ending was spot-on. :-D (made me laugh pretty loud, too)


Last edited by Friendzie on Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:15 am

Actually that translation doesn't really make sense because Teepo has no zipper but it is humorous I guess...
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Tue Sep 09, 2014 4:23 am

I'm not going to go on about how it was multiple lines--not just one, but multiple--lines that were changed again, because I've already done it. You can review my previous posts if you need to. However, I will address this:

Friendzie wrote:
They made the right call in not making him say "Milla-san" and just altering the dialogue to make him say something else Jude-like that fits into the way that Jude typically reacts to things.

I cannot and will never agree with this. The Japanese writing team is the team that actually created Jude in the first place. They are his creators, ergo they know better than anyone how he would react, and they had him call her by a different name than how he addresses Milla Maxwell. Moreover, they had him do it in such a way that is polite, because although Jude is distancing himself and is inadvertently hurting her feelings, he's doing it by being polite. That is how Jude is, that is how he was originally created, written, and intended to be, and the localization team changed that in favor of making him seem more nice/sensitive/accepting of Alt Milla as Milla than he actually is.

But that said, I'm pretty tired of arguing this, since the conversation is going in circles, so this will be my last post on it. I just had to vent a bit of incredulity at the idea that the localization team made Jude more IC by changing the way he treats Alt Milla, as if the people who actually created that character wouldn't know how he would or should behave in that situation. That's like saying a fanfiction author understands the character of Harry Potter better than JK Rowling. No one ever knows a character better than the original author knows the character, and as such Jude was certainly not more IC in the localization for addressing Alt Milla as "Milla" and saying "you're Milla just as much as she is." The localization team did not make the right call on that one, not by a long shot.
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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:23 am

Just because someone created a character does not mean someone else can't portray them better. It's unlikely, yes, but it also does not mean a writer can't fumble and put their character(s) into an out of character moment. It happens, and people have been quick to point out such things for ages past. This is why characterization is up to interpretation and is not set in stone.

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PostSubject: Re: [X1&2 spoilers] Actual serious topic about localization   Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:37 am

There was actually a topic yesterday on GameFAQs with players who'd only played the English version talking about how cold Jude was towards Fractured Milla and describing his behavior exactly the way that it was intended. I would post a link but I'm not sure if that's appropriate to link to another messageboard. Although we've probably exhausted this topic at this point.

Scrawlers wrote:
The Japanese writing team is the team that actually created Jude in the first place. They are his creators, ergo they know better than anyone how he would react, and they had him call her by a different name than how he addresses Milla Maxwell.

"San" is an honorific. It'd be like calling someone Miss Smith. It's never meant to denote that you're calling someone by a different name. I would assume Milla gets frustrated with it because it's too formal to use it every time you say someone's name, not because it's the wrong name.

As far as your incredulity goes, we really have no idea how they came up with that localization. Are we sure that the writers didn't tell the localization team to make Jude say that line a little less harshly in the English version? This is the same series of games where they changed dialogue and altered scenes between Japanese versions Tales of Vespiria. For example, in the 360 version of Vespiria it is suggested that Flynn is off trying to bring Ragou to justice while the party is fighting Barbados. In the PS3 version Flynn is standing right next to you and having nothing to do with Ragou at that moment. At some other point, Raven comes up with a good idea to get past the Flynn Brigade in the 360 version. In the PS3 version Patty Fleur comes up with the idea, whispers it to Raven, and suddenly a scene that shows Raven's benefit to the team is giving half the credit to someone who didn't even exist originally. So, no, I don't see the scripts for these games as being perfect works of art. I think the writers could easily go with a variety of slightly different versions, and probably regret some of their choices from time to time. Being that this is an official in-house localization, and given the nature of localizing from Japanese to English, it's not too far fetched to think that the original writers would be perfectly happy with the English localization of Xillia 2. Obviously we're all still free to our opinions, and I do respect that some people didn't like how some of the lines came out.

On another topic, my biggest problem with the localization is actually grammar errors. There are two times in the game where they use the word "who's" when they should have used "whose". For example, the skit "Who's Mabo Curry" should be "Whose Mabo Curry" Who's = who is. Who is Mabo Curry? Didn't realize Mabo Curry was a person! Razz
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