Quality of storytelling in Tales-games

How well written is usually the story in Tales-games? I'm not good at analyzing the story, I can only tell if the writing is so bad I'm having trouble suspending disbelief enough to enjoy the story. With games it gets weird though, to me it seems the story usually starts off very poor, and gets better as I become more acquainted with the characters.

Most of the time the entire story seems a bit off, though, the plot twists are usually visible from miles away, the story seems like it's trying to be more engaging than it really is, and I sometimes have trouble taking characters seriously.

inb4everyonehatesontalesstories

To me it just depends on the game itself. Sure, the series as a whole has things it likes to do in each game, such as try to build off one another and have a central theme to obsess over, but I will admit I'm fine with the tales that most of the games have to offer.

Personally, the one thing I definitely can't agree with the fanbase on in recent times is how most of them call the games "cliche." Yes, there are common Tropes Tales likes to employ, but I think what alot of people forget is that what the Tales Series does is take those ideas and make different and/or uncommon spins on them. Of course you won't see any merit if you block that out.

Probably my favorite plot in the series goes to Tales of Eternia. I love the characters and I really got into the theme of being able to identify with other people's' pains and sorrows.

For the most part I agree, the games are quite likable, if at sometimes rather bland. I understand they can't reinvent the wheel every time, and in a way they do mix things up a little, though seen one grassy continent, seen them all. It was also fairly obvious that I'd get the possibility to fly around the map at some point.

In Vesperia that part actually happened sooner than I liked, though. Between getting to Nordopolica, where you first get access to a boat, and the point where you get flying, is a very short time, it didn't even feel very special. Could be because I was expecting it, though.

In Symphonia I seem to remember that the ability to fly came quite late, although it may just be my memory is slightly off.

Back on track, while Symphonia is lauded far and wide for being great, I can't help but wonder if it might be because it was the very first western release of a Tales-game. The story wasn't spectacular, some of the cut scenes had this awkward character thing about them, like when Raine is doing *something* on a huge stone dais, and the "shocker" when some bad guys showed up and gave the phrase "like moths to the flame" was about as surprising as Roland's death in Borderlands 2 (spoiler warning).

Although all in all the stories are competent, they certainly aren't gonna light the world on fire, and the make or break part of a Tales-game is very often the combat, it seems to me. And I like the combat, it plays pretty well, even if Vesperia's combat was clunky as hell and takes a lot of getting used to. I still can't handle boss fights properly, the gap between boss fights and normal mobs is huge, so I find it hard to practice in any meaningful way, unless I challenge myself to not give in to the easy-option in the menu just to get past the annoying fight.

A good story is very nice, though. I remember the story from games like Thomas was alone. It's a game about squares, and it has an amazingly enchanting story. Not to mention Stanley Parable, weird stuff, hilarious narrator and this (Youtube link).

While I agree that a lot story mechanics and tropes are reused in many Tales games, I don't think it takes away from the enjoyment, at least for me. Even if I recognize every trope they use, I still get into the story very easily.

One trope that, if used in a certain way, will work on fantastically in my opinion is the whole "villain is  nice guy" thing. In Graces, the first antagonist was Richard (I know, Lambda was controlling him, but my point is the idea of a player character turning evil.) I think it would be cool if Namco made an antagonist out of a player character, and one that is really close to the player. That's really all I want from a Tales story at this point. I feel that the Tales series is very polished and I've been satisfied with all the stories. Though, while I understand that it's a major series trope, I think it would be interesting if they made a villain that didn't have any real motivation and was just evil. I just think it would be an interesting change of pace.

As an English major, I find the stories in general to be structured well. There will be times where I don't understand why they do what they do in a scene but then I'll have a mini breakthrough at some point and be all like "OH! That's what they meant."

Twinrehz wrote:

Back on track, while Symphonia is lauded far and wide for being great, I can't help but wonder if it might be because it was the very first western release of a Tales-game.

It wasn't even the first to get a western release. It was simply the first to get a decent amount of advertising. The first game we got was Tales of Destiny.

But yes, Symphonia is majorly overrated, with Vesperia right behind it.

Flamzeron wrote:

Though, while I understand that it's a major series trope, I think it would be interesting if they made a villain that didn't have any real motivation and was just evil. I just think it would be an interesting change of pace.

They've done that atleast five times.

DreamSword wrote:

Flamzeron wrote:

Though, while I understand that it's a major series trope, I think it would be interesting if they made a villain that didn't have any real motivation and was just evil. I just think it would be an interesting change of pace.

They've done that atleast five times.

They should do it again, then. Maybe add in the Burger King.

DreamSword wrote:

Twinrehz wrote:

Back on track, while Symphonia is lauded far and wide for being great, I can't help but wonder if it might be because it was the very first western release of a Tales-game.

It wasn't even the first to get a western release. It was simply the first to get a decent amount of advertising. The first game we got was Tales of Destiny.

Ah, my bad then for not checking facts.

[quote=Flamzeron]While I agree that a lot story mechanics and tropes are reused in many Tales games, I don't think it takes away from the enjoyment, at least for me. Even if I recognize every trope they use, I still get into the story very easily.[/quote]
True, the stories are for the most part enjoyable. As I grow older I recognize stuff that leaves a big fat question mark over things, like the placement of Rita's hut in Vesperia seems out of place, looks a bit worn and situated on a small ledge near an underground river, while the rest of the city of Aspio seems very structured and polished. Not to mention Rita herself, a mage prodigy of some sort who abandon's all her research duties in Aspio to go on an adventure, with the weak excuse that she's going to research aer krenes.

Like I've suggested earlier, some characters seem very awkward, in fact at some point all characters seem very awkwardly placed into a world they don't understand, like they weren't supposed to be a part of that world at all.

...rereading this I'm starting to think maybe I'm analyzing this too much. I still end up liking the games, even if it takes a while to get the feel for it. With Vesperia it wasn't until I came to around 25-30 hours before I started getting a feel for the story, and actually began liking the characters, when it finally seems that they also are starting to like each other. Estelle's high-fives at the end of combat seems like a good indicator for that, at first Rita seemed surprised and a little annoyed by it, but now the whole party's in on it.

As for tropes, well Vesperia is the second game I've played in the series, so maybe I'll start noticing more stuff later on.

Twinrehz wrote:

DreamSword wrote:

Twinrehz wrote:

Back on track, while Symphonia is lauded far and wide for being great, I can't help but wonder if it might be because it was the very first western release of a Tales-game.

It wasn't even the first to get a western release. It was simply the first to get a decent amount of advertising. The first game we got was Tales of Destiny.

Ah, my bad then for not checking facts.

Flamzeron wrote:

While I agree that a lot story mechanics and tropes are reused in many Tales games, I don't think it takes away from the enjoyment, at least for me. Even if I recognize every trope they use, I still get into the story very easily.

True, the stories are for the most part enjoyable. As I grow older I recognize stuff that leaves a big fat question mark over things, like the placement of Rita's hut in Vesperia seems out of place, looks a bit worn and situated on a small ledge near an underground river, while the rest of the city of Aspio seems very structured and polished. Not to mention Rita herself, a mage prodigy of some sort who abandon's all her research duties in Aspio to go on an adventure, with the weak excuse that she's going to research aer krenes.

Like I've suggested earlier, some characters seem very awkward, in fact at some point all characters seem very awkwardly placed into a world they don't understand, like they weren't supposed to be a part of that world at all.

...rereading this I'm starting to think maybe I'm analyzing this too much. I still end up liking the games, even if it takes a while to get the feel for it. With Vesperia it wasn't until I came to around 25-30 hours before I started getting a feel for the story, and actually began liking the characters, when it finally seems that they also are starting to like each other. Estelle's high-fives at the end of combat seems like a good indicator for that, at first Rita seemed surprised and a little annoyed by it, but now the whole party's in on it.

As for tropes, well Vesperia is the second game I've played in the series, so maybe I'll start noticing more stuff later on.

You're not over analyzing. Writers like to hide meaning in the little things like what a character does, how/why they do it, and whatnot. As a writer myself, I do the same thing. It's fun to try to figure out what the writers were thinking.

Ah, the subtle art of writing. I want to write books myself, but I never get started. And whenever I think of a good idea, I tend to forget it again.

This has been the kind of topic that has been on my as of late that I've been wanting to talk about this (To the point that I registered here again just to start rather than giving a proper reintroduction). This is going to be a long post.

Back then, I never thought of Tales as a series with strong stories. It's something I lived with when I got into series. When Tales of Symphonia came around, it's when tend to hear others treat the stories as if it was high quality stuff. Then later on, criticism with certain installment in the series (certainly ones that were supposedly well written & others that were this amount of sloppy writing).

There's the problem I've encountered...I wouldn't know good writing, even if it slapped me in the face. There's three certain installments I will bring up in this regards (Legendia, Abyss, and Vesperia).

Legendia was a game I didn't initially hated but others did. But when I replayed it, it wasn't just the gameplay that was underwhelming. I didn't see what the big deal was with the character quests and I felt like it was nothing more than character development exposition (and that it was part of the main quest, it would really show how weak it was). I also felt that any world building done here (specifically outside of the Legacy) was an afterthought. Yet, this is a game whose story was tends to be hailed as great (and that it's not all that hated anymore).

Abyss was an installment where the story was also hailed as well-written. When I finished my first playthrough, I didn't care much for it, I didn't like Luke for the way he acted, and the story didn't interest me much. Yet, this was considered well written. Later on, I watched the anime and then later on, I grew to be okay with the installment. I felt like I was willing to admit it had some good world building, good character development, and all that stuff. Despite just thinking the game's okay, that's what I'm willing to admit about it. However, with the release of the 3DS version, I go hearing about plot holes in the story (which I keep forgetting what that plot hole is), Luke flip-flopping on his character development, and how unlikable the characters is. I once even made the remark that, "Just because a character is unlikable doesn't mean they're not interesting." and made it look for me that people rather have a likable character than a character with depth to them.

Finally, Tales of Vesperia. This was where the figurative slap in the face really hurt for me. When I originally played it, I loved it! Practically everything about it! Even when some conflicts came up (the port), I still went for all those achievements! Years passed and how I'm feeling bitter and heart broken. It wasn't even because of that PS3 port. I was heart-broken because I felt like I worshipped a false idol. I start hearing about how bad the writing with Tales of Vesperia's story is. Jumping all over the place, not making sense, etc. Of course, there's the third act. This one pretty much is the worst thing about the game in what was already a poorly written story. Rushed, abandoned all themes about the game, just pads the game out, and does nothing worthy for the story. Yet, Vesperia is worshipped like no tomorrow. There's an evil part of me that makes want to ask, "What do people see in this game? The story isn't that great!" That's just coming out of the frustration on the "Worshipped a false idol" thing. The fact that I didn't find the story to be bad nor did I find the third act to be horrible just proves to me that I wouldn't know good writing, even if it slapped me in the face (I'm probably the only idiot that actually didn't think the third act was bad). Now I act like the third act is the equivalent of the ending to Mass Effect 3 (where it pretty much discredited the story before it and made everything before it a waste).

I think for those reasons, I feel more like I kiss up to Abyss, despite the fact I only think it's okay. Not only that, I go damning Vesperia's story despite the fact I loved it previously. It's just that I feel like I should be able to tell what is objectively good writing.

If I get anything out of this, it's that, "I don't even know if Tales even have good writing to begin with."

Maybe that's why this is very often on my mind; I'm worried that I at first like the story, and is then let down by it towards the end, or on reflection. Other things have done this with me in the past, like the tv-series Lost. I loved it at first, it was a great big mystery that seemed entangled with everyone, and that everyone were there, almost for a reason. After the 4th or 5th season though (I don't quite remember), the series seemed like it was starting to let itself down, all the mystery goes into one giant mess, and the ending is a great big fart right in your face, where they've left it "open for interpretation", which could maybe have been interesting, had there been anything to interpret.

Oh sure, were they all dead the whole time, or were they stuck in some sort of lobby that they had to figure their way through? No, I say, this is not "open for interpretation", this is giving us a story, and not giving us an ending, a closure for the series. I CAN accept "open for interpretation", but like I said, there must be something to interpret. Some stories have left me pondering, Thomas was alone did this quite successfully, and other stories have pulled the same trick, hell, the ending of Portal 2 almost made me want to cry, mainly because it subverted my expectations completely with the 4 turrets that first take aim, and then starts playing music.

And that's what I love about a story, if it manages to give me something to think about at the end, it gives me a reason to like it, to think that it was meaningful in its own way.

Cless Aileron wrote:

Legendia was a game I didn't initially hated but others did. But when I replayed it, it wasn't just the gameplay that was underwhelming. I didn't see what the big deal was with the character quests and I felt like it was nothing more than character development exposition (and that it was part of the main quest, it would really show how weak it was). I also felt that any world building done here (specifically outside of the Legacy) was an afterthought. Yet, this is a game whose story was tends to be hailed as great (and that it's not all that hated anymore).

Legend story was never hailed as great. Legendia was the first Tales game to be heavily about the characters and not the story itself(Main Quest is really poor writen for instance) and while the story of CQ's as a whole is not the big thing, it is how the characters cared for each other and helped on each other troubles that give the game a cult between the fanbase. The OST is considered the best in the series the world lore is awesome and the party is one big family add these with good NPC's and there's why Legendia is considered good.[/quote]

Cless Aileron wrote:

Abyss was an installment where the story was also hailed as well-written. When I finished my first playthrough, I didn't care much for it, I didn't like Luke for the way he acted, and the story didn't interest me much. Yet, this was considered well written. Later on, I watched the anime and then later on, I grew to be okay with the installment. I felt like I was willing to admit it had some good world building, good character development, and all that stuff. Despite just thinking the game's okay, that's what I'm willing to admit about it. However, with the release of the 3DS version, I go hearing about plot holes in the story (which I keep forgetting what that plot hole is), Luke flip-flopping on his character development, and how unlikable the characters is. I once even made the remark that, "Just because a character is unlikable doesn't mean they're not interesting." and made it look for me that people rather have a likable character than a character with depth to them.

Abyss aged horrible as a whole even with the 3DS release, putting the software issues aside you have a game with questionable character development(Luke going from awful to less awful and Tear going from good to plain dumb), poor writing and forced plot, forgettable OST a party with very few likeable character(this was one of the biggest discussion on the old forums) and one of the worst villains of all Tales. I like Abyss thought, but mostly because it's gameplay which is one of my favorites of the series.

My opinion about the stories as a whole:

Tales isn't much about their stories, most of them are forced with suddenly plot twists. Tales is about the gameplay and character interaction.

Twinrehz wrote:

...rereading this I'm starting to think maybe I'm analyzing this too much.

That's only for you to decide. The line is drawn by just how much you sweat the small stuff. Overthinking little details is definitely something a section of the fanbase loves to do though, so it wouldn't be like you were out of place.

Me personally, I tend to just take things at face value, unless someone starts acting wildly out of character or something very blatant. I don't see the point int he symbolism of someone wearing a red dress, for example.

Cless Aileron wrote:

If I get anything out of this, it's that, "I don't even know if Tales even have good writing to begin with."

Regardless on if you think the series has "good writing" or not(Hell, I highly doubt most people who play these games know good writing from bad), in the end all that matters is if you enjoy them or not. If you do, great. If not, fine. Don't let other people discredit the worth or enjoyment you found in your own experience.

I care less about story writing and more about how it is told (presented/directed). If a scene in the game makes me giddy due to how badass it is; or if a character's death, how unnecessary and dumb it may be, gave me feels because the BGM is just so sad; or even if there is an asspull so offensive it broke a thousand holes into the plot, if it makes me go "AWW YISS", then it's a good story for me.

I'm shallow like that.

For Tales series, I think most of the time, I enjoyed the storyline. Sure there are some moments that made me feel detached from the story, but when the story ends, I felt satisfied overall. For example, I think I once read that a lot of Xillia 2 offends the world-building of Xillia and creates humongous plot holes, but when I played it, I find it to be one of the most beautiful story told - a story of brotherly bonds, a parent's love for his child, and the absolute badassery of full-armored Kamen Rider frantically slashing his enemy while yelling "Keiga Soujinranbu" accompanied by a sped up version of the game's theme song.

Tales of Phantasia is actually one of the worst time travel stories I know of it terms of its "pick and chose for the convenience of the plot" approach to temporal physics (the OVA actually fixes the bigger problems... while creating others).

Tales of the Abyss has a main cast comprised of despicable, monstrous people (Arietta incident, etc.) and the cardboard "sympathetic" villains they're trying to stop are just laughable (I'm a mindless fanatic who worships Van's insane genocidal plan for the future and I'm going to refuse to redeem myself for no reason even when my former protege / younger clone / significant other / long lost daughter gives me multiple opportunities, BLAAAAARGH)

Tales of Vesperia has like half of its plot happening off-camera (where the f*** did Alexei get the artificial Dein Nomos thing, how did he did even know the thing would resonate with Estelle's other thing, why didn't Khroma ever try to intervene considering she went out of her way to disguise herself and stand right beside him the entire time and she's part of a secret race that exists for the explicit stated goal of monitoring Aer anomalies so they don't end up destroying the world, Duke's entire backstory, etc.)


Tales games have never been really great writing-wise, imo.  I guess Symphonia is one of the better examples, when it's not being preachy.

DreamSword wrote:

Twinrehz wrote:

...rereading this I'm starting to think maybe I'm analyzing this too much.

That's only for you to decide. The line is drawn by just how much you sweat the small stuff. Overthinking little details is definitely something a section of the fanbase loves to do though, so it wouldn't be like you were out of place.

Me personally, I tend to just take things at face value, unless someone starts acting wildly out of character or something very blatant. I don't see the point int he symbolism of someone wearing a red dress, for example.

Cless Aileron wrote:

If I get anything out of this, it's that, "I don't even know if Tales even have good writing to begin with."

Regardless on if you think the series has "good writing" or not(Hell, I highly doubt most people who play these games know good writing from bad), in the end all that matters is if you enjoy them or not. If you do, great. If not, fine. Don't let other people discredit the worth or enjoyment you found in your own experience.

/\ THIS! /\

King Cat the Sixth wrote:

I care less about story writing and more about how it is told (presented/directed). If a scene in the game makes me giddy due to how badass it is; or if a character's death, how unnecessary and dumb it may be, gave me feels because the BGM is just so sad; or even if there is an asspull so offensive it broke a thousand holes into the plot, if it makes me go "AWW YISS", then it's a good story for me.

/\ yep,THIS /\

I really enjoyed the games I've played so far (Vesperia, Graces and Abyss) despite not liking some points in their stories, they were OK to me and that's what matters for me. I do dislike the lack of development in some of the games(like Duke's backstory, for instance) but the story is still enjoyable.
...what I mean is, the "quality of the storytelling" is decent, the games wouldn't have a nice fanbase otherwise, but wether the games are "FREAKING AWESOME" or "meh" depends entirely on your tastes~ (...or at least they should)

I'm kind of a mix; I usually like Tales stories a lot and don't think they're bad at all (in fact they're one of the main things I play the series for), but otoh I tend to be very analytical and nitpicky. So sometimes, no matter how skillfully the scene is directed, if there's a plothole, a contradiction, or the feeling that it was unnecessary, it will completely kill my emotional investment in the scene. This comes in various degrees and depends on how many times the game pulls that, though.

But of course it's all a matter of taste.

I had a really long response for this...then I hit reply and somehow got logged out and it all dissappeared.    I don't feel like typing another giant wall of text again, so I'm just going to say I think Tales storylines are good and I may or may not come back and explain why later.

I don't typically like the stories in any RPGs. The games I like the best just have good character development. Tales games are very good at that. Tales of Graces took a bunch of annoying kids, turned them into annoying adults, and then 400 skits and 50 hours later, I loved all of them.

I decided I'd come back and type this...let's see if it stays this time.

I actually love the story line of Tales games.  I really only play games for their story, which is why it's rare I do a second playthrough of anything because I've already seen the main story which is why I played it in the first place.  A couple of extra bonuses and sidequest aren't enough to make me want to pick up a game again.

WARNING: I'm having trouble getting the spoiler tags to work, so If you haven't played a game yet please don't read th section I wrote on it.

Phantasia was the first Tales game I played.  I loved it.  I  remember when you get sent back to the past and Chester's bow goes back with you, all I could think was: OMG he's DEAD!  I was very much relieved when we went back to the present and he actually wasn't.  I actually thought the game would end after beating Dhaos there, but the game through me for a loop and sent the party to the future. And at the end you find out Dhaos was actually just trying to save his home, and it makes you feel like a bad guy. I loved how that game kept throwing me for loops.

Legendia was next.  A thought the story was a little weaker than Phantasia, but I still enjoyed it.  What really ruined the story for me was at the end of the main arc where Maurits was pretty much your main enemy, then it jumps the beginning of the character quests he's buddy buddy with everyone and it's like the party forgot he was trying to kill them not that long ago.  It makes no sense what so ever.

Abyss was third, and I thought it actually had one of the strongest stories of the games I've played in the series, minus a few inconsistantcies in the score. Like it said Luke (Asch) would die at Akzeriuth then there's another score after the Akzeriuth incident happened that says Luke will find the cure to the miasma at Belkend or something.  I thought the score had him dead at this point, and the score doesn't account for replicas.  Is he a zombie now? Although I realize who Luke actually was very early on, they had way to many things to give that away.  Although despite all the hints they dropped it took me until the point where Van took a different ship from the rest of the group to realize he was evil.  Also the whole Ion and Sync are replicas of the same person thing felt very lackluster.  I was more shocked in Legendia when I found out about]Grune and Schwartz. I never made the connection, but when Schwartz took off her mask you could actually see their faces were the same.  They look more similar to each other than Ion does to Sync or Asch does to Luke.

Symphonia was fourth.  I actually spoilered a lot of the story for myself before hand when I was looking up games related to Phantasia, but even so I still really liked it.  It reminds me a lot of Final Fantasy X (my favorite Final Fantasy game) in that both have a corrupted religion that is basically a lie, both Yuna and Colette were willing to sacrifice themselves for their world even though it woulddn't really stop the cycle, and both were really popular games that had sequels that get bashed a ton.

Graces was 5th.  I haven't finished the future arc yet (What did they do to Richard?  His personality did a complete 180!)  but I like how they seem to be exploring Sophie's worry over everyone died and leaving her, so that's nice.  The main game was okay, but again it felt kind of lackluster compared to the other titles.  Especially with how Abel absorbed Lambda at the end.  I get how after learning more about Lambda they could be reluctant to kill him, but after seeing what he did to Richard why would you think THAT would be the optimal solution?

Xilla was 6th.  I also thought this game had a really good story.  The idea of having a summon spirit as a party member was cool, and even though the argument can be made that Xilla is almost Symphonia all over again, I still really enjoyed it.  The one complaint I have is that despite having two supposed main characters, it seems obvious your main playthrough is supposed to be Jude's story.  Just look at the number of Jude only sidequests vs Milla only sidequest.  Millia's playthrough also makes you miss a lot of critical parts to the story.  Like at the end when I went to fight Wingul then went straight to Gaius, I was so confused.  What happened to Agria and Presa?  Jude's storyline doesn't leave any major gaps like that to my knowledge.

(MINOR GRACES SPOILERS)

Marissa wrote:

Graces was 5th.  I haven't finished the future arc yet (What did they do to Richard?  His personality did a complete 180!)  but I like how they seem to be exploring Sophie's worry over everyone died and leaving her, so that's nice.  The main game was okay, but again it felt kind of lackluster compared to the other titles.  Especially with how Abel absorbed Lambda at the end.  I get how after learning more about Lambda they could be reluctant to kill him, but after seeing what he did to Richard why would you think THAT would be the optimal solution?

We never got to know Richard as an adult without the influence of Lambda prior to The Future Arc. Even when he was still partially in control of himself, he was struggling. Also, I think you should finish the Future Arc because it does resolve Lambda's storyline. As far as whether the story justified Asbel's decisions, well, that seems to be Asbel's character flaw. His idealism and heroism could easily have gotten him killed many times in the plot, but he was a little lucky. I think that's also part of why Hubert is so irritated by Asbel for much of the game. Hubert is a military and combat genius, but in the end still can't outdo his idiot brother.