This game sucks

This game sucks. Too much backtracking and it feels lazy.

Curse this game! Curse Bamco!

What does that even mater? It's not like you have to walk to every place you back track to

Too much backtracking. And you're a Zestiria fanboy, hahahaha

swordandshield wrote:

Too much backtracking

Wrong section this isn't Abyss

swordandshield wrote:

Too much backtracking. And you're a Zestiria fanboy, hahahaha

????????? No I'm a Rebirth fanboy.

Psypher wrote:

swordandshield wrote:

Too much backtracking

Wrong section this isn't Abyss

Rekt

Psypher wrote:

swordandshield wrote:

Too much backtracking

Wrong section this isn't Abyss

In Abyss you backtracked but there was story involved, in Zest-crappy-ria there is no story progression when you backtrack.

I was so angry and upset and hated the game so much I snapped the disc in half and to show Bamco their game sucks.

Tales of Berseria will WILL suck just like Zestiria. Goodbye Tales series!

I've merged your threads because there's no reason to create multiple at the same time for the same point. Don't start going to other threads and antagonizing everybody else for no reason like you did in the Zestiria music thread, you have been warned.

I'm almost tempted to count this as two warnings because you created three threads across two subforums and another post at the same time.

I may not care much for Zestiria even as a Tales fan, but...

ಠ_ಠ

Just

ಠ_ಠ

Yes, please be respectful when posting. You are entitled to your opinion, but it's better to express just that (that it is your opinion).

I can see the game's flaws, but I like it enough to overlook them.

I'm sorry. I got a little carried away. It's a shame the Tales series is turning to crap like Final Fantasy.

Zestiria can be good in some strange way, and I like some things about it but it has disappointed me so far. I was expecting it to be a lot better.

I thought the first half of the game felt much more polished than the second.

Which backtracking are we talking about again? Sincere question here because I don't really remember.

See, bringing up Final Fantasy is the first thing that shows me how impatient somebody is. Since Final Fantasy 10, there haven't been two back to back Final Fantasy games with the same battle system, even in the Final Fantasy XIII sub-series.

Likewise, I don't see Tales games as a continuous evolution either. Xillia and Xillia 2 were related, I hear that Graces is similar to Zestiria in terms of gameplay, and Berseria will likely be an evolution of that, well who's to say that the next game after Berseria will play just like that?

Now, it's hard to imagine them going back to a battle system before these games, Free Running is here to stay and we're never gonna get another sprite-based game, but you're acting me like one game and its sequel are spelling out the end of the franchise.

Did you like the Xillia games? What about the people who didn't? What would you have thought if Xillia 2 got announced and everybody made fun of you for liking this "DEAD, SHITTY FRANCHISE THAT WILL NEVER GET GOOD AGAIN" when indeed Zestiria was enjoyed by many?

Getting back to the Final Fantasy point briefly, I loved the Final Fantasy XIII games personally, and I don't consider myself a fan of Final Fantasy gameplay (but I dig the world and character designs. White Mage outfits are still max totes adorbsness.) Sure, for whatever reason people can't enjoy the gameplay and would rather complain, and the next two games we've got are these real time things that will likely divide fans further (or again, maybe they won't care about the gameplay if the story/remake is handled well,) but I don't think this necessarily spells the end for the franchise...Square also makes Dragon Quest after all and that series hasn't changed in 30 years.

So I really think you're overreacting. It's not a bad thing to dislike a couple games in a series that's been around since the SNES. Sure, development takes longer these days, but we're still getting a new one every one or two years. Things will change yet again, I'm sure of it.

@King Cat, It's all the backtracking to get the Iris gems and going all the way back to Ladylake and the beginning of the game to get to the next trial shrine.

I think what Bamco is doing, however unfortunate it may be, is that they are experimenting with the series and trying out different and new things with it which just isn't working. I also think they are developing the games too fast and not putting their hearts and souls into the games like they used to. Remember when it took like 5 years to get the next Tales game? Now we're getting a new one in the span of only a year tops and it just feels like a half-assed game. I think that is a problem.

Don't get me wrong I did overreact and I apologize for that and I do like Zestiria a little bit. It's still better than most RPGs that are being released today.

As far as Final Fantasy goes, that series has turned to sh*t in my honest opinion. I bought Final Fantasy type O and haven't played it yet. I actually heard that it is quite decent but the main franchise like the numbered Final Fantasy's nowadays are just sh*t compared to the quality and soul that the older more traditional Final Fantasy's had. But it seems to me the newer the console/game is the sh*ttier it is in terms of quality. The graphics may be good but everything else is sub-par. The Tales game still maintain the same graphics no matter what console it is being released on for the most part and that is perfectly fine. I mean heck, Zestiria looks like a PS2 game but graphics don't mean everything especially when it comes to RPGs. I still love those oldschool 2D RPGs.

Anyways, I am sorry for overreacting, again. Won't happen again.

Okay, now you're saying things that are just wrong.

First off, looking at the timeline of the Tales series, the longest gap between major releases was 3 years, and that only happened between Destiny and Eternia. Namco's American efforts mean nothing in terms of dev time, they operate on a separate schedule.

This bullshit about not putting the same effort into games is one of the worst things you can say as a fan of anything. It's like those anti-dub people who argue that the stupid gaijin just aren't as emotional as glorious Nippon.

I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT THE DEDICATION OF THE *GENERATIONS* OF DEVELOPERS AT NAMCO BANDAI HAS NOT CHANGED and it is disgusting that you would suggest such a thing.

Now, development time versus quality is always tricky business. Sure, you can definitely argue that compared to older games, it now takes many more resources to develop a game, so keeping the same schedule as they did in the past is foolish and likely causes them to cut corners. However, there's a difference between keeping your project scope limited, and ACTUALLY cutting functionality to ship your game. I don't think Namco is guilty of this. You also have to consider the obscene working hours that the Japanese put into...Pretty much anything. Keeping the battle system largely the same and not really diverting from the cel-shaded visual style they've set for themselves since Symphonia is maybe a good hint as to why Namco can pump these games out every couple years where-as Square-Enix takes over twice as long. Slow improvements over an extended period of time means more games in less time without releasing a game that took 3+ years to make and upsets your fanbase.

Also, comparing Zestiria to a PS2 game, you seriously need a reminder of what those fucking things looked like. Cel-shading does have the advantage of aging better than other visual styles, so if anything, the older 3D games have the advantage of hanging onto good looks for a longer period, but that doesn't mean that the newer titles aren't significantly improved. That's an advantage of the visual design though, to overlook all the mechanical aspects and the simple things that make things look clearer and actually let characters emote more, is complete ignorance.


Now to be more opinionated:

A lot of what I've already said applies to your complaints about Final Fantasy. We're talking about two sides of the same coin. I say this all the time when Final Fantasy XIII comes up, as someone who isn't a series fan, I love the Final Fantasy XIII games, because they're different. I totally understand why someone who was a big classic Final Fantasy fan might not be of the same train of thought, but to lash out and say that the new games are just worse because they aren't like the old ones is, again, ignorant.

If people articulated their opinions better, I'd be fine with it, but 90% of the arguments I see against Final Fantasy boil down to "it's different and it's dumb" when I think most of Final Fantasy is boring and samey. Sure, narrative complaints can't be quantified (personally I don't see how modern Final Fantasy is any less dorky than old Final Fantasy,) but ignoring the gameplay is a huge problem when those titles provide a very unique experience.

swordandshield wrote:

It's all the backtracking to get the Iris gems and going all the way back to Ladylake and the beginning of the game to get to the next trial shrine.

I don't know what is the absolute definition of backtracking, but I'm pretty sure teleporting back to the first town to open up a whole new dungeon shouldn't really count as one. Now if I have to run all the way back and go through the exact same dungeon I've cleared, then I understand the complaints.

Also, I assume from that statement too (and I'm heavily assuming, sorry if it's wrong), it sounds like you don't want to go back to previous location and instead have the next storyline at a new location ahead of you. Because if it is so, then this is the shining example of linearity you loathed in newer FF games (well, probably just ff13).

I myself likes games that requires me to go back to previous locations because I can feel how my actions affect the towns/worlds instead of having throwaway town that serves no purpose anymore. Moreover, the Iris gems episodes actually gives more insight on the situation of the citizens, like how the thieving children's fate. If there's no Iris gems, then those thieving kids will feel like throwaway characters that serve no purpose other than to show Rose being awesome and caring.

Zestiria actually has really great sidequests that invested me a lot on the people of the world, how a simple passing with seemingly unimportant character actually changes their whole destiny. And you shouldn't have felt too much backtracking if you have done the sidequests when they opened instead of piling them around in the first place. I remember only needing 1 or 2 more Iris gems when the storyline deems it compulsory to gather it.

Only backtracking I felt was at the end of the game when the party need to return to Elysia, but it actually really makes sense in the story and we get a humongous final dungeon to compensate too. And this shouldn't even count too because the whole atmosphere change makes the formerly peaceful forest near Elysia an entirely new area.

To say this right now, I was close enough to start a topic about the so-called decline of the Tales series. This topic pretty much stopped me from doing that and feels like this is where I should just get it off my chest.

Okay, I'm not going to step around this one. This whole drama over Tales of Zestiria being this so-called piece of crap has gotten me into a depressed mood because it's just proving how much of an idiot I am that can't notice bad design, writing, blah blah blah. Yeah, coming from the guy that didn't find Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull a piece of crap, the only Star Wars prequel I have a problem with is the Phantom Menace rather than the entire prequel trilogy, I was too oblivious to Resident Evil 6 spitting all over its legacy (and just so it's out there, it sounds more like people want fear, suspense, & atmosphere, not this Michael Bay bull), and that I can't realize Tales of Vesperia's third act was the most insulting, slap in the face there ever was. It's just that Tales of Zestiria is the nail in the coffin that confirms how much of an idiot I am. But maybe that's why I want to get certain things off my chest.

I remember a certain site doing a top ten list of series that deserves to die and placed Tales at number 9. I was watching the video with a, "I'm not above criticizing the Tales series" mindset and I still felt the reasoning was pretty poor. Tales of Graces' character being dull when that could be said for any Tales cast, Xillia being highly cliché (when even Tales of Symphonia can be accused of that too), etc. (Also, I found myself saying with the video, "What? No usual saying that Call of Duty, Halo, & Madden deserves to die? I mean, everyone's saying they should just die!") which gets me to look at things with another of the two Tales game that acts like the greatest there is.

With Tales of Vesperia, so many people worship the ground it walks on, yet complains a lot about that third act. Even when I hear someone say third acts in JRPGs are usually crap anyway, I still can't run with that since it's always Tales of Vesperia's third act people complain about. Never something like Tales of the Abyss's third act or any other Tales game. In fact, I don't even understand how people don't discredit Tales of Vesperia's story after the third act the same way people have discredit the entire Mass Effect series' story after Mass Effect 3's story. To be honest, I feel like that's where I've gotten to be so critical...or nit picky with Tales of Vesperia. I'm just finding (or trying to find) things wrong with the game. Or maybe I'm just gotten extremely sick of Tales of Vesperia.

On the Final Fantasy side, I actually hated Final Fantasy X enough to turn my back away from the franchise. It wasn't until last year where I gave the game another go that I didn't hate the game anymore. When it was brought up about why I even hated the game in the first place to a friend, he was saying that I hated it because it wasn't Final Fantasy IX. It was one of those moments where I wanted to slap my younger self in the face for it. Besides, I've gotten pretty bitter hearing the circlejerk surrounding FFVI & FFIX that I feel like I have to say FFVI is favorite begrudgingly and I don't even know if I care enough to look into FFIX again with that PC version being released soon. I think that also leads into the whole thing about being sick of hearing what a real Final Fantasy game should be.

Maybe the only thing I'm getting from ranting myself is that I'm trying to analyze this with logic but honestly, it's more like we respond with emotions more than logic. Yeah, logic is for wusses. A lot of people do it for later Final Fantasy while circle jerking to the nostalgic titles. Seems like it's the same for Tales. It's not like I haven't been responding with emotions over logic here either.

I don't really understand this self-reflective angle that you're taking. There's nothing wrong with having a neutral opinion on something. Whether you think Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, the Star Wars prequels and Resident Evil 6 enjoyable, or bad, or whatever, that's YOUR opinion. You don't have to agree with the majority, and you also don't have to have a firm opinion as to why you don't have the same opinion as the majority. Sure you might not like RE6 enough to defend it, but that doesn't mean you have to hate it like everyone else, and it doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with you if you don't.

In my opinion, you have to think about games from both perspectives, the logical perspective and the emotional one. People who call themselves "fans" usually stick to the emotional ones, where-as more logical people often get accused of not being a "true fan," not that they really care as they probably wouldn't be arguing for very long in the first place.

These attitudes really piss me off, because most video games are a fusion of things that are enjoyed by both groups. People laugh about the idea of Halo and Call of Duty having a story, because they're ALL ABOUT THE GAMEPLAY, right? But then there are TONS of Halo fans who are into the lore and the novels and other expanded universe stuff, and Call of Duty games often have incredibly good action/military movie storylines (Black Ops 3 was basically a Ghost in the Shell game without the license!) If there's anything to make fun of it's the people who buy those games for multiplayer only, but then complain endlessly about said multiplayer component year after year, because they obviously aren't playing the games for the right personal reasons and should probably move on.

At the same time, a lot of RPG fans will bash new and "different" entries in their favourite series, but I generally don't gather a lot of cohesion from their opinions, like I've said with Final Fantasy XIII, nobody talks about the fantastic battle system, it's all about the narrarative which I personally enjoy, but I also think it's typical Final Fantasy bullshit, so it boggles my goddamn mind why people are upset about FFXIII's story as if it's some grand departure.

As I mentioned earlier, I get the same vibe from a lot of anime fans when they talk about dubs. Sure, bad dubs exist. Can you criticize commonly-accepted dubs? Totally. However, you have to keep in mind whether your opinion is truly critical, like whether an actor should've been cast differently or if there were some heavy edits or adaptations to the script when official books in Japan make certain translations crystal clear...But if you're just claiming arbitrary things like the Japanese are just more emotional and therefore are better, or that English female actresses are inherently more annoying, you're not saying anything worth listening to.


(The following becomes a huge tangent, fair warning):
And I do think a major problem with the industry right now is this concept of honoring a legacy. This is a point I constantly bring up when people mention RE6. In my opinion, the post-RE4 games have been some of the best third-person actions games we've seen in a long fucking time. There's the occasional third-person shooter worth playing, but RE games have unique mechanics and tactile controls that other games just don't have, Capcom knows their shit. Realistically, do we want these games to go back to fixed-camera tank control titles? Do people really want that? Because my personal stance is, it's basically impossible to create a horror game without gimping your gameplay. Power reduces fear, and I while I think these games can be balanced better by reducing ammo drops so you have to run from some fights or maybe set up traps to kill many enemies with less resources, there's a reason why most modern horror games basically just give you a lantern and say DON'T TOUCH MONSTERS OR YOU DIE INSTANTLY. So from a mechanical aspect, I think that the modern RE games have a place to stay. Personally I don't understand how people don't think that a series will totally stagnate if it never changes, I think RE3 already kind of pushed the original games' mechanics to their limit, so wanting Capcom to make a new RE game in the style of the old ones is selfishly asking for nothing but fanservice.

On the subject of the more "emotional" side of things, this is where things get even dumber. People lose their goddamn minds when a Resident Evil game doesn't have traditional zombies. The franchise is fucking called Biohazard, not ZOMBIES AND ZOMBIE ANIMALS. Even before RE4, the coolest enemies weren't the zombies themselves but the tyrants and hunters and lickers and stuff, I think everyone pretty much agrees on this!, things that are still the inspiration for the monsters we're fighting in the current games. Resident Evil, in my opinion, has NEVER been about zombies, it has ALWAYS been about bioterrorism with mutant experimentation, it's just that the first generic enemies that you fight in the first handful of games were slow and stupid zombies, something that inevitably has to ramp up as bioterrorism spreads across the globe, viruses improve and are sold on the black market and...Basically a lot of good plot stuff that the series has continued to do since it was created.

I also often get the impression that people don't even care about the game's cast, a bunch of super cool dudes fighting a bunch of crazy and egotistical maniacs. Now I do agree that the series needs a better villain now that Wesker's out of the spotlight, that's definitely something to be critical of, but the way that they have all these organizations like the BSAA, TerraSave, Tricell and FBC and how they fight against or carry on Umbrella's legacy is something that actually sounds plausible compared to a real world arms race...However nobody seems to give a shit. I think it works, the RE franchise has a REALLY strong cast, but nobody gives the narrative any credit, they just want zombies and Umbrella. Does it really matter if the game is called Resident Evil anymore, or that Capcom makes it?

Getting back on track for a quick closer, I personally think that legacy when it comes to gaming is pretty overrated. Sure, sometimes a game you like changes and never returns to how it was. It's happened to several of my favourite franchises, and games like Lost Planet or Devil May Cry get completely nonsensical reboots that kill their franchises, but there will always be other developers making games that fill the gap, even if it takes a while; expecting a single series to remain the same for your entire life is naive.

who cares, i enjoyed stuff, i hate stuff, i go into discussion about why i hate you for hating stuff i enjoyed.

tis life

Sigh if you guys don't see the downhill and decline of the Tales and Final Fantasy series' I don't know what to really say. Not every game is perfect and has flaws. I'm just being highly critical of them because yeah sure the series is "different" now but that doesn't mean we can't be critical of it and just accept whatever bs they do to the series now. Final Fantasy has turned into this action based game with very little RPG qualities, and FF13 was so linear and the story was very bad. It seemed to focus on Lightning, a character I never got interested in. FF13-2 was a little better only because I tend to enjoy the Pokemon games but still very bad storytelling and very confusing storytelling. The plot made no sense whatsoever. Now here comes FF13 Lightning Returns, the name itself was a turn off for me because I didn't really like Lightning or just wasn't that interested in her. So we get Lightning Returns only to find a bad story and a battle system where you only control 1 character IN A JRPG of all things!

Now the Tales series is in decline because very bad plot and story, the characters except for Dezel and maybe Sorey are just dull and boring, the story and the whole malevolence thing is just one big convoluted mess that seemed to be thought up by someone on a whim with no real reason as to how the malevolence became to be what it is, and while big and massive the areas and environments were just empty with a lot of wasted space. I mean sure in these areas you found treasure chests but the chests contained crap most of the time. No world map, no airship, not many towns, dungeons are just recycled and looked the same which indicates laziness on their behalf. The only dungeons that seemed to be remotely interesting were the shrine trials. You also do more backtracking than anything, using save points to warp which is a nice feature but makes the world feel small.

I'm making these points not out of emotion either. I'm not saying every other Tales game before Zestiria didn't have problems either but one thing I hate about Zestiria more than anything is the skill and fusion system and grinding constantly. I don't mind grinding a few times in RPGs but when I have to grind for the majority of the game just to get good skills and equipment, it feels more like a chore than a game. Vesperia did the skill system right.

The rpg industry is stagnating in regards to creative quality for two general reasons:

1. AAA titles and their budgets are too costly thus limiting the amount of risk a company wishes to take on their franchise. (NB)

2. Due to moronic finanical decisions a game's development cycle can be adversly affected (13 or 15) and when a game has been in production for over a goddamn decade a lot of radical design choices can take place like Versus 13 becoming 15.


To say that Square Enix or NB haven't dipped in quality on their respective franchises would be a foolish thing to say. Change IS possible but it has to come from the inside and is a very slow process. Though to Square Enix's credit they HAVE been doing just that.

Tales hasn't fallen in sales to the point where it fucks the entire company over like it did with SE but it's sure as shit getting there. Are they making an effort to localize titles and to actually pay attention to the western fanbase? Yes. Have the newer titles gotten any better in terms of creativity? No. It feels like they're just barely hitting the mark with mediocre-quality games. Resusing assets can be a great way to save time and money better spent on other aspects of a game, but when you get repeated stupid shit like no world maps, barebones town exploration and bland storytelling there's a problem.

I won't bring in my personal opinion on Zestiria but I will say this to future Tales titles: Get your shit together, I'm tired of the same goddamn issues from you.


P.S. Hey, Indie developers, don't give up on trying to make your mark in a difficult industry as we need you. Both gamers and developers need a healthy dose of change.

swordandshield wrote:

and while big and massive the areas and environments were just empty with a lot of wasted space. I mean sure in these areas you found treasure chests but the chests contained crap most of the time.

Areas being wide and empty is a big drawback from wanting a (pseudo) seamless battle on the map itself. It's a rather hard thing to balance a more populated map against better control in battle. Even with the rather wide map, there's still shitty occurrences like being surrounded by fucking guard breaking squirrel and shrubs.

You win some, you lose some. Unless the Tales game is going to wholly revamp the battle system to make use of the terrains better (or at least a jump button), seamless battle system pretty much necessitates a wide and rather empty map.

And treasure chests in Zestiria works very differently than most other Tales (or games) in that the drops are random and influenced by other factors such as Lord of the Land's boons. They can also be replenished with the boons, and plays quite a major role in gald farming. This is kinda a love-it or hate-it mechanics because it undermines the value of discovering treasure chests, but it's actually a good mechanics to help in players' end/postgame.

My opinion on this mechanics is rather neutral. Sure, it really bugs me too during the course of my game, like what even is the point of exploration? It doesn't give me the satisfaction of uncovering an extremely cool hidden items when I managed to find it. However, I really think it's a really great assisting tool for completing the game (I mean in the completionist sense). You open up these Golden Treasure Chests in a ruin, warp as far as possible, then warp back into the ruin and the Golden Treasure Chests are replenished. It really helps.

swordandshield wrote:

You also do more backtracking than anything, using save points to warp which is a nice feature but makes the world feel small.

It doesn't feel small. It is small. It is just one continent.

And honestly, this is just my opinion but World Map is rather a really outdated mechanics. I don't see how a game can be real-scaled and have a world map travel with "miniaturized towns and enlarged characters" portrayal. World Maps is good in older games where you're trying to visualize a wide world with as low resources as possible, but it will feel jarring for the newer games to have it. It might be good for a spinoff, handheld title, but I don't see how it'll fit a full-fledge (supposedly) AAA console game.

It was a good mechanics for its time, but it's gotta go. Gotta get on with the times man.

swordandshield wrote:

the characters except for Dezel and maybe Sorey are just dull and boring

I am surprised you're having the problem with the characters because honestly I really love the party dynamics in this game, one of the best even. They have more interaction with each other because of the in-battle banter, the returning Xillia's map exploration skit, and of course the skits. Not to mention, the localized voice acting is honestly the best I've heard yet out of a japanese localized game.

I didn't like some of the characters at first too. I felt Lailah to be the typical "ara ara ufufu" type of female character, and Edna being the resident emotionless girl. But along the story, they kinda asserted their characters with their dialogues and oh my god puns that the party felt really dynamic. It is to the point that I felt really annoyed when Zaveid first joined the party, like "wtf bro get out of my circle". Alas, Zaveid also proved to be good at melding in and the party felt whole once again.

Even the postgame dungeon doesn't feel like a chore because they still has their in-battle banter of random stuff and puns when encountering new monsters.


TLDR; Zestiria has questionable design decision, but the mechanics surrounding it works where it intended to be. Characters are awesome, wtf are you talking about. I don't do storyline analysis because I'm a tool that eats everything the writer feeds. I am incapable to see bad plot and writing; if a scene make me laugh, make me sad, make me feel awesome, then it's a good scene.


Postnote: It is rather weird seeing two different users posting about their discontents about the game from a totally different angles. One dislike it for changes, and one dislike it for not changing.

Postnote 2: Why am I even defending Zestiria? I don't even like the game very much.

Taiyz ily for that post, I agree wholeheartedly with just everything.

And Suiko I have to agree as well, though I'm optimistic about the future of the series. For me, Zestiria tried some new things that I liked, Xillia/2 and Zestiria had some pacing issues and storytelling methods I did not, but I am glad for them trying to change things up. I'm excited to see what kind of mishmash of new and old Berseria will be, and I'm hoping the personal qualms I have are put to rest and they continue to develop the new stuff that I really liked. (and add in some other new stuff too!) But really they could do absolutely anything and maybe my personal qualms won't be fixed but they may still add in a ton of stuff that I love that balances it out. IMO Zestiria was a big improvement over my personal dislikes in X/2 so I'm optimistic.