Tales of Zestiria Discussion (SPOILERS)

DreamSword wrote:

I love how everyone is ignoring that the DLC is free for the first few weeks, so even if you don't have the game you can still just nab it off PSN with no strings attached.

Still doesn't eliminate the core problem and issue.

DylDawg wrote:

DreamSword wrote:

I love how everyone is ignoring that the DLC is free for the first few weeks, so even if you don't have the game you can still just nab it off PSN with no strings attached.

Still doesn't eliminate the core problem and issue.

No, but people ignoring an aspect of the situation at large in order to make it look worse than it actually is helps nothing.

Taiyz wrote:

Especially when it's on the disc already

Has this been proven anywhere? Honestly curious.

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but the fact that you have to jump through that hoop at all is a problem. Anybody who wasn't paying attention to release hype (like I wasn't until a week ago) will likely have no idea this is going on and have to shell out extra money when they purchase the game later.

Crystal Power wrote:

Also for whatever reason, not knowing on time or owning a PS3, after the week you have to pay. All things must be considered just how people consider Bamco's side, the consumer must be considered too.

Ignorance isn't an excuse here, especially at this point in the series' life. If you were at all interested in the game, you're likely a Tales Series fan, or know a Tales fan, and as such should be aware of, if not the DLC itself, a place where you can very easily find out about it. Google exists, even if "Just Google it" is an annoying phrase.

As a side note, the very nature of so many people being upset about this confuses me. So many people have already signed off on this game despite not having ever played it, so why even care about some post-game DLC that you're not forced to get anyway? I highly doubt that it's content so miraculous it'd change minds in a heartbeat were it totally free or already in the game.

DreamSword wrote:

Ignorance isn't an excuse here, especially at this point in the series' life. If you were at all interested in the game, you're likely a Tales Series fan, or know a Tales fan, and as such should be aware of, if not the DLC itself, a place where you can very easily find out about it. Google exists, even if "Just Google it" is an annoying phrase.

As a side note, the very nature of so many people being upset about this confuses me. So many people have already signed off on this game despite not having ever played it, so why even care about some post-game DLC that you're not forced to get anyway? I highly doubt that it's content so miraculous it'd change minds in a heartbeat were it totally free or already in the game.

Er, it is an excuse. Also it's not ignorance. We can't just assume all the people who buy these are as big of fans as ourselves and not being knowledge about a video game isn't what I would call "ignorance", it's a video game not the history of where your culture originated from lol. People are not up to date on video game news as much as we are (Or movies, music, etc), and there's nothing wrong with that and it's not their fault they missed out on a week of free DLC if they didn't know of it's existence and such at the time.

However, I haven't wrote the game off, I still plan on playing it myself. Though I may not be willing to get it at a $60 price tag, I mean how else is I'm going to afford the tons of DLC if I spend it all on the game itself. :- P

By the very definition, it is ignorance. Is it wrong? No. But it's also not a free pass to whine when one didn't even bother to look into a game they're interested in. Also, it's two weeks, not a week, which is very much a big enough window to get the thing for free if anyone wanted it.

I get that the very nature of DLC itself is controversial, but whether one likes it or not, it's here to stay.

Considering that this is the first time Namco's done this first-week-free thing for a Tales game, yes, ignorance is totally an excuse. Not everybody can afford to pre-order everything and I'm sure plenty of people try to ignore pre-release hype to avoid spoilers.

Ironically it's the controversy that will probably make most people aware of the free period in the first place.


I don't think any of us have said we aren't going to get the game, we care specifically because we WANT to get the game, but if we don't make our voices heard then Namco Bandai will keep doing this shit. Like I said before, I firmly believe that the DLC coming out for free for a week was in response to the backlash only.

If you're fine with getting nickel and dimed, by all means, but ignoring the issue just encourages publishers to up the ante.

DreamSword wrote:

why even care about some post-game DLC that you're not forced to get anyway? I highly doubt that it's content so miraculous it'd change minds in a heartbeat were it totally free or already in the game.

Slippery slope logic here. Next Tales game has no skits unless you pay $5. The Tales game after that has no unlockable costumes either, they're all DLC now. The game after that, the post-game character quests or epilogues or whatever are all on disc but are sold separately. You don't HAVE to play them after all, and you can only buy the ones for the characters you like! IT'S GENIUS

I mean it's ultimately a person's choice whether they play certain parts of a game beyond the core story, and whether they feel that they need DLC to lengthen the game, but there are certain expectations that fans and consumers have when purchasing a product. Especially with the way that Alisha was represented as part of the game's marketing, having her get "replaced" in the story and then only appear again in DLC later, we expected more. Like I said before, it's total arbitration, Namco could release a Tales game with only one playable character and you have to pay $4 each to play as the other party members. Some people could argue that's fair, Namco made the game, it's Namco's decision if 69.99 is good enough for only one playable character, they could claim that it was always planned to be that way and it's a courteous gesture that they'll allow us to pay to play as the other guys. But this is functionality that we expect from the game and should be included at no cost.

Again, it's one of those behind-closed-doors kinda things where if they simply section off DLC and release it later instead of simply providing a content unlock key, that maintains an illusion that Namco Bandai cares.

As it stands however, Namco's making it painfully obvious that they want to whore out poor little Alisha for an extra 1300 yen.

Taiyz wrote:

Considering that this is the first time Namco's done this first-week-free thing for a Tales game, yes, ignorance is totally an excuse. Not everybody can afford to pre-order everything and I'm sure plenty of people try to ignore pre-release hype to avoid spoilers.

Abyssal Chronicles and various other Tales sites avoid spoilers. That is not a factor.

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I don't think any of us have said we aren't going to get the game, we care specifically because we WANT to get the game, but if we don't make our voices heard then Namco Bandai will keep doing this shit. Like I said before, I firmly believe that the DLC coming out for free for a week was in response to the backlash only.

Maybe not you, but plenty of people in the Fanbase have, and they are very loud, and very, very whiney.

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If you're fine with getting nickel and dimed, by all means, but ignoring the issue just encourages publishers to up the ante.

I don't consider it that, because I actually keep up on these things and the details they have.

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Slippery slope logic here. Next Tales game has no skits unless you pay $5. The Tales game after that has no unlockable costumes either, they're all DLC now. The game after that, the post-game character quests or epilogues or whatever are all on disc but are sold separately. You don't HAVE to play them after all, and you can only buy the ones for the characters you like! IT'S GENIUS

This is a common argument that's been made against DLC ever since it first premiered, and ever since such an extreme example has yet to happen, ever. I highly doubt the very next Tales game would get to this point, and assuming that it would only shows your lack of faith in the company, not in your caring for the preciousness of the Tales series.

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Like I said before, it's total arbitration, Namco could release a Tales game with only one playable character and you have to pay $4 each to play as the other party members. Some people could argue that's fair, Namco made the game, it's Namco's decision if 69.99 is good enough for only one playable character, they could claim that it was always planned to be that way and it's a courteous gesture that they'll allow us to pay to play as the other guys. But this is functionality that we expect from the game and should be included at no cost.

You see, all of that could happen, but it never will. Why? Because nobody is that stupid. Were a game to ever whore itself toward DLC that badly (as in, your example of practically the entire game being DLC) practically no one would be buy it other than online reviews who wouldn't realize the irony of them purchasing the product they'd obviously hate.

Dreamsword, I hope you realize that the reason Zestiria has already sold so many copies is twofold. One, we trusted in Namco and believed this Tales game would live up to its usual standards. Two, the marketing portrayed it to be something it's not.

Do I regret pre-ordering for full price? No, because I always get the Famitsu Packs for my collection. Am I looking forward to playing the game itself? ...Eh, not really. Does it surprise me that some people feel like they've wasted their money buying this game at full price? No, I'm not surprised at all.

Will we trust the next Tales game? Some of us might, some of us might not. I'm sure that a lot of people will take a very suspicious, if not cynical view the next time a Tales game is announced. I suspect there will be far less pre-orders, because people don't want to make the same mistake they made with Zestiria: Assuming that the game will be good based on past experiences and marketing.

Will the next Tales game have even more of a foundation in DLC? Maybe. Maybe not. Even if it did, would Namco admit that beforehand? No. So people would once again be suckered into buying an incomplete game, because there's really no way to know whether it is incomplete or not until someone actually plays it. Your logic of "nobody is that stupid" doesn't hold up because humans don't have the power to see into the future and know whether or not a game is worth our money.

Again, I suspect pre-orders will go down for the next Tales game and people will wait until they're sure it's worth their money.

To clarify, my "nobody is that stupid" statement has to do with if a game that was purely DLC were ever made. Outside of DLC Quest, which is a satire, no company would be dumb enough to make a game like that, because it wouldn't sell, and the company would actually lose money. Why? Because no one with half a brain would buy a game designed like that. Pirate it? Probably. But pay for it? No.

My gripe against the fanbase overall has less to do with those who bought the game were disappointed and more with how so many people are forming their opinions solely off what other people say, while completely disregarding the context of the game and not even bothering to play the game themselves. However, that has nothing to do with the conversation going on at hand, or at the very least, I did not intend it to.

I do understand that Zestiria sold a solid amount of copies, however, it seems that there's an equal amount of people acting like this game, and the DLC, are the worst thing Namco has ever done ever.

Is Zestiria a special case? No, clearly there are many games with just as much DLC controversy.

Does that mean we shouldn't speak out? NO.

The logic that we have to purchase the game to realize our folly is kind of backwards. That's why I liked Siliconera's article, citing Amazon reviews from Japanese players, because these are things that a buyer needs to be aware of.


PS: I realize the game is free to start and you can earn these things by grinding for days, but I do believe that Namco was the company that began the freemium fighting game concept with Tekken Revolution. Prices:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/718273-tekken-revolution/67223005

Plus, with Capcom launching Resident Evil Revelations 2 as an episodic game before its retail release (with really stupid pricing tiers BTW,) I really don't think it's ridiculous to fear for our JRPGs.

Taiyz wrote:

Is Zestiria a special case? No, clearly there are many games with just as much DLC controversy.

Does that mean we shouldn't speak out? NO.

The logic that we have to purchase the game to realize our folly is kind of backwards. That's why I liked Siliconera's article, citing Amazon reviews from Japanese players, because these are things that a buyer needs to be aware of.

I said it'd be best to play the game, not buy it.

I fail to see how actually playing the game in order to form your own opinion is a backwards thing. If you go purely by heresay, then you really don't know for yourself what a game is about in terms of context.

Unless a game is amazingly notoriously horrible/broken (like the forever and tired talk of Sonic 06) there's really no justification for ignoring a game based purely on hearsay without knowledge of context. What people also fail to realize is that such things are subjective. Just because one person doesn't like how a game handled something, it doesn't mean you won't.

If you wanna speak out against whatever it is Namco wronged you about, do it at Namco, don't whine in places where it doesn't matter.

Meowzy and Taiyz are bringing up very strong and valid points. I really don't need to add anything. But you should try to understand what they are saying..

I do want to say I still plan on getting Zestiria. It might not be day one, though it is possible Bamco would include this story DLC in the English game, they did add things in Tales of the Abyss NA release. If they don't I will most likely wait for a price drop. Cant miss out on this epic battle theme.

Spoiler:

For anyone that's okay with this shady ass business practice, you're setting a dangerous precedent. It doesn't matter where in the story this Alisha DLC supposedly takes place, it's indicative of questionable design choices during production. How the hell anyone would be perfectly fine with this is beyond me.

Yeah it's free for now but not indefinitely. You want to charge money for specific costumes or 'boosts'? Fine, but you're treading a fine line. You want to make and charge for a side story on a character marketed as being the heroine despite not actually being so? Get that shit out of here.

I love the Tales of franchise and am glad to support it if it means more western releases, but I have my limit. I'm glad people are constructively speaking out at this shit.

Crystal Power wrote:

Meowzy and Taiyz are bringing up very strong and valid points. I really don't need to add anything. But you should try to understand what they are saying.

I do understand where they're coming from. They have their own views and they are very well allowed to have them. We just simply don't agree with one another, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Suikiwiden wrote:

For anyone that's okay with this shady ass business practice, you're setting a dangerous precedent. It doesn't matter where in the story this Alisha DLC supposedly takes place, it's indicative of questionable design choices during production. How the hell anyone would be perfectly fine with this is beyond me.

The same way anyone would not be fine with it. Matter of opinion.

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I love the Tales of franchise and am glad to support it if it means more western releases, but I have my limit. I'm glad people are constructively speaking out at this shit.

In my experience, most of the complaints have not been constructive and have been more along the lines of "f*** this game and every single thing about it. Namco needs to be razed to the ground!" And again, all without any of them knowing any of the context of the story, or even having played the game themselves in order to get a true feel for the gameplay.

DreamSword wrote:

In my experience, most of the complaints have not been constructive and have been more along the lines of "f*** this game and every single thing about it. Namco needs to be razed to the ground!" And again, all without any of them knowing any of the context of the story, or even having played the game themselves in order to get a true feel for the gameplay.

In my experience I have not seen many complaints like that, many people are calm and expressing there disapprove, while other may be a bit more outraged.

The only person I recall who was out of control was that tumblr user. I have seen a couple mention that things like that have been said, one said a post related this to the recent terrorist trouble with the Japanese hostages. But they were condemning it, each time.

Crystal Power wrote:

DreamSword wrote:

In my experience, most of the complaints have not been constructive and have been more along the lines of "f*** this game and every single thing about it. Namco needs to be razed to the ground!" And again, all without any of them knowing any of the context of the story, or even having played the game themselves in order to get a true feel for the gameplay.

In my experience I have not seen many complaints like that, many people are calm and expressing there disapprove, while other may be a bit more outraged.

Good. Keep going wherever you're going. Honestly I suppose it's my own fault for staying around vitriolic websites.

DreamSword wrote:

Crystal Power wrote:

DreamSword wrote:

In my experience, most of the complaints have not been constructive and have been more along the lines of "f*** this game and every single thing about it. Namco needs to be razed to the ground!" And again, all without any of them knowing any of the context of the story, or even having played the game themselves in order to get a true feel for the gameplay.

In my experience I have not seen many complaints like that, many people are calm and expressing there disapprove, while other may be a bit more outraged.

Good. Keep going wherever you're going. Honestly I suppose it's my own fault for staying around vitriolic websites.

The worse I probably visit is gamefaqs, but from what I seen there was actually support there. I seen a topic asking if they were the only person happy about this Alisha DLC and many people agreed they were happy as well. I disagree they should be happy about this though to be honest, this is really affecting tons of consumers...

DreamSword wrote:

Taiyz wrote:

Is Zestiria a special case? No, clearly there are many games with just as much DLC controversy.

Does that mean we shouldn't speak out? NO.

The logic that we have to purchase the game to realize our folly is kind of backwards. That's why I liked Siliconera's article, citing Amazon reviews from Japanese players, because these are things that a buyer needs to be aware of.

I said it'd be best to play the game, not buy it.

This is another recent line of thinking that I don't get. People have been doing this with a lot of Ubisoft and EA games. If you REALLY hate a game and everything it stands for based on these practices, don't play it. Pirating it just creates another issue and it doesn't really say anything constructive.

And yes I realize you might be talking about game rentals, I just wanted to bring up another facet of the DLC debate.

DreamSword wrote:

I fail to see how actually playing the game in order to form your own opinion is a backwards thing. If you go purely by heresay, then you really don't know for yourself what a game is about in terms of context.

Right, but then what of reviews? Another critical issue in the gaming industry as of late is with regard to review embargoes and such, games getting released with very little public coverage and only internal marketing to go by, so we have no idea how buggy or microtransaction-laden they might be. In Zestiria's case, the problems are exactly caused by a contrast between what marketing lead people to believe and the true importance of certain characters.

Listen, I don't disagree that it's important to form your own opinions, but when there are a multitude of people with the same complaints, you've gotta pay attention. If it was just some asshole on Tumblr then I wouldn't think twice about it, but when a Japanese game culture blog is reporting on it, I think that adds some validity to the argument.

DreamSword wrote:

If you wanna speak out against whatever it is Namco wronged you about, do it at Namco, don't whine in places where it doesn't matter.

Ah yes I'll light the Baba-Signal and get this sorted out right quick. =P

Suikiwiden wrote:

For anyone that's okay with this shady ass business practice, you're setting a dangerous precedent.

Yeah, this is basically the core of my opinion. Don't get me wrong, like Crystal Power said, I'm actually glad that Alisha will be getting more screentime and that new outfit is super cute, it's the delivery method and timing that concerns me. I've also got a feeling that it'll be super short, maybe a taster for larger DLC arcs, but I'd love to see that suspicion proven wrong.

I'm actually quite open to a PS4 version of Zestiria being extended with large additional story arcs, that's a precedent that Namco's already set after all.

DreamSword wrote:

If you wanna speak out against whatever it is Namco wronged you about, do it at Namco, don't whine in places where it doesn't matter.

You understand which forum this is, right? This is a Tales Series forum. A forum that focuses on the Tales Series. Therefore, it is a place where people express their opinions on (you guessed it) the Tales Series. And if those opinions happen to be negative... Well, then that's how it's gonna be.

Who says we aren't speaking out against Namco as well? In fact, if I get lucky enough to see Baba again this year at a convention, I'm going to admit to him how disappointed I am at this turn of events. I won't shy away from calling him out on it. Will it make a difference? Probably not, but I doubt I'll be the only to raise these concerns and together, we just might be heard. Plus, there's also the Amazon reviews and whatnot.

The fact that so many people are speaking out against this should prove that, uh, they did do something quite wrong here. After all, it's a game developer's job to deliver the best product they can, not a 'yes alright it has a lot of flaws, but did you see the good things?' sort of product.

Taiyz wrote:

Ah yes I'll light the Baba-Signal and get this sorted out right quick. =P

Namco has Facebook, Twitter, email, and other forms of social contact for a reason.

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I'm actually quite open to a PS4 version of Zestiria being extended with large additional story arcs, that's a precedent that Namco's already set after all.

I'll admit, you're actually one of the few I've seen say this. Congrats.

I'm not quoting any of your other stuff because there's really nothing else to say on the matter without totally veering into other subjects.

Meowzy wrote:

DreamSword wrote:

If you wanna speak out against whatever it is Namco wronged you about, do it at Namco, don't whine in places where it doesn't matter.

You understand which forum this is, right? This is a Tales Series forum. A forum that focuses on the Tales Series. Therefore, it is a place where people express their opinions on (you guessed it) the Tales Series. And if those opinions happen to be negative... Well, then that's how it's gonna be.

Yeah, I understand that. I'm not a total dummy(or atleast I'd like to think that), but here's the thing; Listing reasons why you dislike the game is one thing, but railing against Namco and saying you need to "make your voice heard" is another. If you want to speak out against whatever Namco is doing in terms of business practice, whether is be DLC or otherwise, there's other, better ways to do it rather than being loud on webiste Namco most likely cares less about.

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Who says we aren't speaking out against Namco as well? In fact, if I get lucky enough to see Baba again this year at a convention, I'm going to admit to him how disappointed I am at this turn of events. I won't shy away from calling him out on it. Will it make a difference? Probably not, but I doubt I'll be the only to raise these concerns and together, we just might be heard. Plus, there's also the Amazon reviews and whatnot.

Props.

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The fact that so many people are speaking out against this should prove that, uh, they did do something quite wrong here. After all, it's a game developer's job to deliver the best product they can, not a 'yes alright it has a lot of flaws, but did you see the good things?' sort of product.

Thing is, not only is the entire matter subjective, but most English players won't know the entire context of the game until it gets its English release, and as such the cycle of this entire matter starts all over again. Unless a game is shown to be notoriously broken (like, say, amazing bugs like Graces' initial release) I don't see the point in getting so upset, atleast gameplay-wise, before actually playing/experiencing the game yourself. Story-wise, well, most of us have to wait to find out every aspect of it.

DreamSword wrote:

If you wanna speak out against whatever it is Namco wronged you about, do it at Namco, don't whine in places where it doesn't matter.

Whoa there buddy, settle down. It's true that telling this to Namco directly would probably be more effective, but this right here is one of those places where we can discuss these very things amongst all of the other discussions we have.

Every single one of us has every right to express our worries for the future of Bandai Namco when it comes to its DLC policies. It is definitely the case that the Alicia DLC has been in the making for a long time and has been working on simultaneously to the "original game", and it is also true that 20 years ago it would have been part of the game itself in all likelihood (perhaps solely because DLC wasn't as prevalent back then as it is now, but who knows?).

Heck, the Costume titles for Graces and Xillia/2 were probably in production at the same time as the game as well. In a way, these kinds of DLC's are even a good thing as you can pay for the parts you want and leave out those you don't care about, but it does make us feel like we are paying more for it (too much even) than we would have if it was integrated in the game itself. And that might be true, I don't know.

Anyway, my straying from the point aside, these discussions should take place on forums like these. That's what they're for.

And by all means, go whine about Zestiria's DLC to Namco directly. If you're convincing enough they might listen to you and change their policy. Which we can all agree on would be fantastic.

Ah, Baba commented on the matter. If I understand what he's saying correctly, it's that they never claimed Alisha was the main heroine, rather the characters were announced in order of appearance. (and that it's up to the players to decide who's the main heroine)

Except uh. Zaveid appeared in the game before even Dezel and Edna did, I'm pretty sure. So Zaveid should've been announced way earlier.

Slivendiferious wrote:

-snip-

You're right in that yes, you do have the right to state your disappointment, but you also need to acknowledge if one -really- wanted their policies to change, doing it on random websites that Namco likely doesn't pay attention to is not the way to go. And if one persists in such things, without even attempting to change things for the better, all it does is annoy the people who don't see it to the same degree.

Meowzy wrote:

Ah, Baba commented on the matter. If I understand what he's saying correctly, it's that they never claimed Alisha was the main heroine, rather the characters were announced in order of appearance. (and that it's up to the players to decide who's the main heroine)

Except uh. Zaveid appeared in the game before even Dezel and Edna did, I'm pretty sure. So Zaveid should've been announced way earlier.

If my memory serves right, Zaveid was announced at the same time as Dezel and Edna. I'd have to go back and check.

As for the 'Alisha was never the main heroine" thing, technically, he's right. Although in defense of the fanbase (for once) showing her off at the same time as Slay and the "she might be a required party member" ordeal certainly didn't help matters.

Dezel and Edna were announced way before Zaveid. Zaveid was announced at ToF.

You also meet Mikleo before Alisha...maybe they put her first to keep Seraph secret a bit longer but...I feel kind of bad for them that's such a technicality they are trying for, I hope they don't lose spirit in making games, hopefully this will make them think more carefully when doing PR though

Yeah, Zaveid was announced at roughly the same time as Rose and it wasn't sure whether or not he was even a party member. It gave off the impression that he was just an important NPC/possibly final boss material, but he's in the game more than Dezel is, I'm pretty sure.